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Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

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Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:06 pm

In the coming One World Govenment and One World Bank of the Novus Ordo Mundi, you don't have a vote, but if you had, who would you put at the top?

While not neglecting enviromental matters and family concerns , it's worth bearing in mind you will also be choosing your "One World Church" leader, so it would be wise to pick a "moral" somebody or other.

For help and advice, please read:

Pope calls for world authority as 'moral force'

By Francis X. Rocca
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The world authority envisioned by two popes as a way to ensure global peace and justice would not be a superpower, but primarily a moral force with limited jurisdiction, Pope Benedict XVI said.

The pope made his remarks Dec. 3 to a plenary session of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, which was scheduled to meet for three days to discuss the theme of "political authority and global governance."

In his address, Pope Benedict recalled that Blessed John XXIII had called for the "construction of a world community, with a corresponding authority," to serve the "common good of the human family."

The pope also cited his own 2009 encyclical "Caritas in Veritate," in which he called for a "true world political authority" to ensure international cooperation, peace and environmental protection.

The church offers "principles of reflection, criteria of judgment and practical guidelines" for such an organization, but no concrete legal or political recommendations, Pope Benedict said in his address.

Yet the pope stipulated that the proposed body would not be a "superpower, concentrated in the hands of a few, which would dominate all peoples, exploiting the weakest." The authority in question, he said, "must be understood, first and foremost, as a moral force, a power to influence in accordance with reason, that is, a participatory authority, limited by law in its jurisdiction."

The council's president, Cardinal Peter Turkson, told Vatican Radio that the agenda for the plenary session would include the topic of global financial governance as a response to the world financial crisis.

In October 2011, the council called for establishment of a "central world bank" to regulate the global financial industry and the international money supply as a step toward the world authority envisioned by Blessed John and Pope Benedict.

Pope Benedict's address also touched on threats to human dignity from different forms of materialism in contemporary culture.

"The man of today is considered primarily from a biological point of view, or as 'human capital,' a 'resource,' a cog in a productive and financial machine that dominates him," the pope said.

"New ideologies -- such as the hedonistic and egoistic one of sexual and reproductive rights, or that of a disorderly financial capitalism that transgresses politics and dismantles the real economy -- contribute to make the employee and his work seem 'minor' goods and to undermine the natural foundations of society, especially the family," he said.

END

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1205060.htm

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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  George Brenner on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:25 pm

Hi Columba,

For me this question was answered beautifully by Pope Boniface VIII


“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)



JMJ,


George
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  simple Faith on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:54 am

Columba, you or I do not have to worry or concern ourselves with 'choosing' the 'One World Church leader', as Catholics we already know that God himself has taken care of this by appointing Pope Benedict XVI as His Vicar. So relax, you're in good hands and under the protection of an authority that can never fail. Of course you don't have to take just my word for that, didn't someone else say something similar, "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."?

BTW, here is a link to an alternative, more balanced, article on the same matter:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/jul/09070812
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:40 am

Thanks for that info SF. It's good to know that there's nothing to be concerned about. Pheeew.

Now let me see if I've got this right... According to both my personal advisors, all that's required is to believe we have a pope. Right.. What now?

PS.
On a little side note. Can I still believe in God?


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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  MRyan on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:50 am

Yes, simple Faith, thanks for that. Nothing like a bit of context and accuracy to dampen the vestment-tearing “He hath blasphemed; what further need have we of witnesses?” raddie-traddies and "Austrians" who see the Pope as the ringmaster behind the “Novus Ordo Mundi”.

And just as they were having sooo much fun beating him with that particular stick (or should I say "shtick"?).

And, Columba, whether you "Can still believe in God" is up to you, just as it up to you to determine if original sin was and is at all times remitted by sanctifying grace.

You can believe whatever you want. If Trent dogmatically condemned your belief that denies that original sin was remitted by sanctifying grace under the old dispensation, don't worry about it, just re-write the infallible dogmatic text so that it excludes the old dispensation and then say you believe it "as it is written" and as the Church has always understood it. Whatever works; you are, after all, the true arbiter of truth and tradition.

Oh, am I on the wrong thread? Pardon me, now, where were we:

Editorial: Pope’s New Encyclical Speaks Against, not for One-World Government and New World Order

by LifeSiteNews.com

Editorial by John-Henry Westen

July 8, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Newspapers, blogs, talk-shows on radio and television are full of discussion over Pope Benedict XVI's supposed call for a "new world order" or a "one-world government." These ideas are, however, neither based in reality nor a clear reading of the Pope's latest encyclical, Caritas in Veritate, the release of which yesterday spawned the heated discussion.

The Pope actually speaks directly against a one-world government, and, as would be expected from those who have read his previous writings, calls for massive reform of the United Nations. Confusion seems to have come from paragraph 67 of the encyclical, which has some choice pull-quotes which have spiced the pages of the world's news, from the New York Times to those of conspiracy theorist bloggers seeing the Pope as the Anti-Christ.

The key quote which has led to the charge reads: "To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: for all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority, as my predecessor Blessed John XXIII indicated some years ago."

However, in paragraph 41, the Holy Father specifically differentiates his concept of a world political authority from that of a one-world government. "We must," he says "promote a dispersed political authority." He explains that "The integrated economy of the present day does not make the role of States redundant, but rather it commits governments to greater collaboration with one another. Both wisdom and prudence suggest not being too precipitous in declaring the demise of the State. In terms of the resolution of the current crisis, the State's role seems destined to grow, as it regains many of its competences. In some nations, moreover, the construction or reconstruction of the State remains a key factor in their development."

Later in the encyclical (57) he speaks of the opposite concept to one- world government -subsidiarity (the principle of Catholic social teaching which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority) - as being essential. "In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity," says the Pope.

Another of the key quotes which is being extracted for shock value from the encyclical is this: "In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth."

Since long before his papacy, Joseph Ratzinger has vigorously fought the United Nations' vision of a 'New World Order'. As early as 1997, and repeated subsequently, Ratzinger took public aim at such a vision, noting that the philosophy coming from UN conferences and the Millennium Summit "proposes strategies to reduce the number of guests at the table of humanity, so that the presumed happiness [we] have attained will not be affected."

"At the base of this New World Order", he said is the ideology of "women's empowerment," which erroneously sees "the principal obstacles to [a woman's] fulfillment [as] the family and maternity." The then-cardinal advised that "at this stage of the development of the new image of the new world, Christians - and not just them but in any case they even more than others - have the duty to protest."

Benedict XVI in fact repeats those criticisms in the new encyclical. In Caritas in Veritate, the Pope slams "practices of demographic control, on the part of governments that often promote contraception and even go so far as to impose abortion." He also denounces international economic bodies such as the IMF and World Bank (without specifically naming them) for their lending practices which tie aid to so-called 'family planning.' "There is reason to suspect that development aid is sometimes linked to specific health-care policies which de facto involve the imposition of strong birth control measures," says the encyclical.

Any vision of a proper ordering of the world, of international economics or political cooperation, suggests the Pope, must be based on a "moral order." That includes first and foremost "the fundamental right to life" from conception to natural death, the recognition of the family based on marriage between one man and one woman as the basis of society and freedom for faith and cooperation among all peoples based on principles of natural law.

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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:36 pm

Strange think is, Mike; not much more than a decade ago the New World Order was considered nothing more than a figment of the "conspiracy theorists" imagination, Now that it's openly proclaimed, we must believe either that the "conspiracy theorists" have seduced the whole world with their lies, or, they were right all along.

What must we now say of those "One World Church" conspiracy theorists and their ringleader Pope St. Pius X? At the very least they should have chosen someone with sound credentials and a smidgen of credibility.

Another strange thing; A little over a hundred years ago it did sound a bit far-fetched, even coming from a pope, but now when the world is ripe for such an abomination there ain't no mention of it, Nah, not a word. We must believe either that the "conspiracy theorist pope" got it wrong, or, the architechs of such a vile church have managed to seduce the whole world, including the latter day popes who no longer perceive it as a threat. (At least if they do they're keeping it hush hush).
I'll leave the other possibility unmentioned. Well, it often offends that church's potential congragation, and anyway, we all have to be nice, Don't we?
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  simple Faith on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:41 pm

Columba asked: "On a little side note. Can I still believe in God?"
Well Columba I guess if you don't feel obliged to believe in the Pope appointed by God there is no reason why you should have to believe in God also. After all why should the buck stop with the Pope, why not push it further up the line?
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:11 pm

simple Faith wrote:Columba asked: "On a little side note. Can I still believe in God?"
Well Columba I guess if you don't feel obliged to believe in the Pope appointed by God there is no reason why you should have to believe in God also. After all why should the buck stop with the Pope, why not push it further up the line?

Sorry SF. I wasn't aware that you were present at the conclave in 1958 and are able to assure us and confirm, that God didn't in fact choose Cardinal Siri as pope and that pressure wasn't exerted on him to decline the offer. Just saying; cos if it were true, his replacement would not have been God's choice. Hmmm..That would have serious ramifications right to the present day. Anyway, I'll take your word for it.... Hold on a minute!... Where you even born then?

In the meantime I'll continue believing in God.
Darn!... Another problem... Don't the Muslims believe in the same god as me?
That would mean... Actually, what would it mean? This One World Church stuff can be quite complicated.
Ah well, back to the drawing board.



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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  MRyan on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:20 pm

columba wrote:

Sorry SF. I wasn't aware that you were present at the conclave in 1958 and are able to assure us and confirm, that God didn't in fact choose Cardinal Siri as pope and that pressure wasn't exerted on him to decline the offer. Just saying; cos if it were true, his replacement would not have been God's choice. Hmmm..That would have serious ramifications right to the present day. Anyway, I'll take your word for it.... Hold on a minute!... Where you even born then?
This just keeps getting better and better!

So when Cardinal Roncalli was universally accepted by the Church as God’s true visible Vicar as Pope John XXIII, with full and immediate Primacy over the universal Church, God was saying to Himself, “No, no, he is NOT My true Vicar, Cardinal Siri is; what in the blue blazes is wrong with you people, can’t you get anything right, not even My hand-picked choice for Vicar?”

And of course, Cardinal Siri, who knew he was the real pope, demonstrated his indignation (at having been so unceremoniously tossed aside) by immediately submitting to Pope John XXIII and to Pope Paul VI (he was “‘elected twice – don’t you know – and was afraid for his life, and that of his family!), and would accept all of the documents of VCII, as well as the new rite or the Mass. And this “pope in hiding” was so fearful that he would rather a “usurper” and an “anti-pope” falsely sit upon the Chair of Peter than to insist on laying claim to his God-given rights as Christ’s true Vicar!

And this was the Prince of the Church, who cowered in abject fear for his life, of whom it is alleged (by the loopy sede fringe), that God was not given the chance to accept as His true Vicar; He was double-crossed!

Your silly conspiracy theory is an insult to the good name of Cardinal Siri, Columba, and an insult to the Church, not to mention to our Lord.
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  simple Faith on Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:32 pm

Your right Columba, I wasn't there at the conclave (must have been busy that week) but not to worry, the Holy Spirit was there ensuring that God's visible head of His Church on Earth would be appointed (despite any opposition).
With regards to Cardinal Siri well I guess someone (as you suggest) who fell at the first hurdle (because of pressure) might not have been the best choice to lead the Church.
Sorry Columba. I wasn't aware that you were present at the conclave in 1958 and are able to assure us and confirm, that God didn't in fact choose John XXIII as pope and that he dutifully accepted the offer. Just saying; cos if it were true, he would have been God's choice. Hmmm..That would have serious ramifications right to the present day. Anyway, I'll take your word for it.... Hold on a minute!... Where you even born then?
Oh, that's right, you were.

In the meantime I'll continue believing in God and His Pope.
Darn!... Another problem... Don't the sedevacantists and the fence-sitters believe in the same God as me?
That would mean... Actually, what would it mean? This One World Church stuff can be quite complicated.
Ah well, back to the drawing board.
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:09 pm

Mike,
Those things which I believe to be theologically possible, you deem impossible; Those things which I believe to be theologically impossible, You deem possible. That's where we're at on almost every topic.

The Cardinal Siri case is one such example. I leave the possibility open; you shut the door, despite the fact that these "conspiracies" aren't without some credible evidence and are not born in a vacuum. The condition of the Church over the past several decades lends extra plausibility to such theories (including that of JPI) not less. If you don't want to face up to uncomfortable possibilities, that's up to you. Me; I'll take the good with the bad.
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  George Brenner on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:44 pm


Columba,

We all pray constantly that our Catholic Church will be protected from the attacks of Satan. We pray in the prayer to St,. Michael for God to literally send to hell Satan and all evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking, trying and in ___% of cases succeeding in the ruin of souls. There is no doubt that Satan will pull out all the stops in attacking our Church and use any and all means at his disposal to undermine our faith. You and I are in strong disagreement over whether the Church remains pure in doctrine and true Papal succession. But we can agree that there are attacks constantly against our beloved Catholic Faith. I at times can feel the presence of good and evil. This is just one of many below examples that I have seen or felt over the years. I recently went to Mass at the chapel at the hospital where I volunteer and picked up the new 2013 missal when a feeling came over me that something was wrong. For some reason I turned the book over, upside down when I shivered at what I saw. It was so obvious to me and so evil ! The feeling that I had is what my Mom used to say was that of " someone walking over your grave ". I do not know the origin of this saying. Why am I posting this. I am not sure........

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/godandthemachine/files/2012/12/OCP-e1354470835630-713x1024.jpg


JMJ,

George
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  MRyan on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:53 pm

columba wrote:

Mike, Those things which I believe to be theologically possible, you deem impossible; Those things which I believe to be theologically impossible, You deem possible. That's where we're at on almost every topic.
That’s quite true, but with one major difference. Unlike you, those things that I believe are “theologically possible” (that relate especially to sanctification and salvation) are possible only because the Church teaches them as possible, or as true doctrines.

When, for example, the Church teaches that she has always held the firm conviction that the baptisms of blood and desire assure the salvation of those who are properly disposed, I believe it, and can validate, for the uneducated, the tradition and the universal moral consensus of the theologians (as if the Church’s word isn’t good enough). You reject this established doctrine and say it is a contradiction to a defined dogma – that is, your private interpretation thereof.

And, if the Church allows for the hope of salvation for non-water baptized infants, I have the same hope, while you deny it.

And, when tradition, Pope Leo XIII and the Council of Trent infallibly proclaim the justice of the OT saints by the merits of Christ who was to come, by which sins were remitted and the gift of the sanctifying indwelling of the Holy Ghost was poured forth, I believe it with divine and Catholic faith, while you render meaningless the obvious sense of the words of Pope Leo XIII, and will probably allege that The Council of Trent, Canon XI, is excluding the "men" of the old dispensation from its dogmatic condemnation -- for you must rewrite this dogmatic canon as well if it is to fit into your false private interpretation of John 3:5.

CANON XI. –If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.
And columba says that the just saints of the old dispensation were justified by the imputation of the justice and merits of Christ, inclusive of the remission of sins; to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them.

See, this is all “theological speculation”, and we cannot take the clear words of Pope Leo XIII, or those of a formal dogmatic condemnation, “as it is written”, and as they are “allegedly” understood by the Church and her Doctors.

But this does not surprise us, columba, for you are the same person who holds that the universal understanding of Trent. Sess. VI, Ch. 4 by the Church, her saints, doctors and theologians is false, while your novel heterodox interpretation is correct, and the formally trained medieval Latinists can be go pound sand.

And of course, you also hold, against the common opinion and moral consensus of the Doctors, the theologians and the saints, as well as against the living authoritative Magisterium, that the Church has dogmatically defined that no man who sheds his blood for Christ without first having “remained” in the bosom of the Church by water Baptism can be saved.

You are, and always have been, in other words, a magisterium of one, who cannot produce a single credible testimonial from a saint, doctor or theologian since justification (and the manner in which it is effected) was formally defined by Trent, who will corroborate your novel heterodox theories. Not a single one.

But that does not bother you, not when “truth” is on your side.

columba wrote:
The Cardinal Siri case is one such example. I leave the possibility open; you shut the door, despite the fact that these "conspiracies" aren't without some credible evidence and are not born in a vacuum. The condition of the Church over the past several decades lends extra plausibility to such theories (including that of JPI) not less. If you don't want to face up to uncomfortable possibilities, that's up to you. Me; I'll take the good with the bad.
It does not surprise me in the least that you “leave the possibility open” that 50, and then 80 Cardinal Electors who were present at the respective Papal Conclaves of 1958 and 1963, conspired to block the acceptance of Cardinal Siri even though he "allegedly" received the most votes in the final ballots.

God will not be mocked by a conspiracy of Cardinal Electors to frustrate His will and impose their own. Just think about that for a moment. You will believe any conspiracy theory, no matter how loopy, if it can somehow justify your rebellion, as opposed to trusting in the promises of our Lord, and His living authoritative Magisterium.
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:19 am

Mryan wrote:
And, if the Church allows for the hope of salvation for non-water baptized infants, I have the same hope, while you deny it.

As do I. Their hope lies in a miraculous intervention by God to provide the water before judgment day.

MRyan wrote:
And columba says that the just saints of the old dispensation were justified by the imputation of the justice and merits of Christ, inclusive of the remission of sins; to the exclusion of the grace and the charity

And columba says no such thing. I said that the just of the OT would not be denied regeneration in Christ.

Mike,. You can believe that, "Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life [and] Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth" CCC, 1254; yet, at the same time, those who are at the threshold of this new life can receive (this new life) without crossing that threshold; I can (and do) believe that the just of the OT were not over the threshold but awaited the fullness of redemption at the comimg of Christ into the world, and by a deliberate, unmerit action of Christ, (as the prots would say, "their good works are as rags before the Lord"). There are indications that lead one to believe that their sancification/salvation also did not transpire without water.

Now what were we discussing? Oh yes! The One World Church
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:29 am

George Brenner Wrote:
For some reason I turned the book over, upside down when I shivered at what I saw. It was so obvious to me and so evil !

George, I can't make head nor tail out of that image no matter which way I turn it.
What did you see?
It is quite weird to say the least. scratch
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  columba on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:35 am

Simple faith wrote:
In the meantime I'll continue believing in God and His Pope.
Darn!... Another problem... Don't the sedevacantists and the fence-sitters believe in the same God as me?
That would mean... Actually, what would it mean? This One World Church stuff can be quite complicated.
Ah well, back to the drawing board.

In the meantime I'll continue believing in God.
Darn!... Another problem... Don't the Muslims believe in the same god as me?
That would mean... Actually, what would it mean? This One World Church stuff can be quite complicated.
Ah well, back to the drawing board.


Your turn.

BTW. I wasn't yet born in 1958. These little details are important at my age. Sad
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Re: Paradise? or Hell on Earth Coming Soon?

Post  George Brenner on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:08 pm

Columba,

Upper right a full size witch with large hat and hand extended. On left, full size Headless Pope with hands in prayer position. (circa1944 aprox)


JMJ,

George
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