Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Forum (No Salvation Outside the Church Forum)
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Latest topics
» The Unity of the Body (the Church, Israel)
Filioque Clause  EmptySun Mar 17, 2024 9:23 am by tornpage

» Defilement of the Temple
Filioque Clause  EmptyTue Feb 06, 2024 7:44 am by tornpage

» Forum update
Filioque Clause  EmptySat Feb 03, 2024 8:24 am by tornpage

» Bishop Williamson's Recent Comments
Filioque Clause  EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 12:42 pm by MRyan

» The Mysterious 45 days of Daniel 12:11-12
Filioque Clause  EmptyFri Jan 26, 2024 11:04 am by tornpage

» St. Bonaventure on the Necessity of Baptism
Filioque Clause  EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 7:06 pm by tornpage

» Isaiah 22:20-25
Filioque Clause  EmptyFri Jan 19, 2024 10:44 am by tornpage

» Translation of Bellarmine's De Amissione Gratiae, Bk. VI
Filioque Clause  EmptyFri Jan 19, 2024 10:04 am by tornpage

» Orestes Brownson Nails it on Baptism of Desire
Filioque Clause  EmptyThu Jan 18, 2024 3:06 pm by MRyan

» Do Feeneyites still exist?
Filioque Clause  EmptyWed Jan 17, 2024 8:02 am by Jehanne

» Sedevacantism and the Church's Indefectibility
Filioque Clause  EmptySat Jan 13, 2024 5:22 pm by tornpage

» Inallible safety?
Filioque Clause  EmptyThu Jan 11, 2024 1:47 pm by MRyan

» Usury - Has the Church Erred?
Filioque Clause  EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 11:05 pm by tornpage

» Rethink "Feeneyism"?
Filioque Clause  EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 8:40 pm by MRyan

» SSPX cannot accept Vatican Council II because of the restrictions placed by the Jewish Left
Filioque Clause  EmptyFri Jan 05, 2024 8:57 am by Jehanne

» Anyone still around?
Filioque Clause  EmptyMon Jan 01, 2024 11:04 pm by Jehanne

» Angelqueen.org???
Filioque Clause  EmptyTue Oct 16, 2018 8:38 am by Paul

» Vatican (CDF/Ecclesia Dei) has no objection if the SSPX and all religious communities affirm Vatican Council II (without the premise)
Filioque Clause  EmptySun Dec 10, 2017 8:29 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Piazza Spagna - mission
Filioque Clause  EmptySun Dec 10, 2017 8:06 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Fund,Catholic organisation needed to help Catholic priests in Italy like Fr. Alessandro Minutella
Filioque Clause  EmptySun Dec 10, 2017 7:52 am by Lionel L. Andrades


Filioque Clause

2 posters

Go down

Filioque Clause  Empty Filioque Clause

Post  Papist Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:33 am

Some people seem really stuck on this issue. For me it seems so obvious. Scripture says the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ:

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Gal 4:6
And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father

And it seems that the Spirit is obedient to the Son:

John 15:26
But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

And that the Holy Ghost comes from the Son:

Acts 2:33
Being exalted therefore by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this which you see and hear.

On what grounds do the Orthodox and some Eastern Catholics reject this? Is it merely a desperate attempt to cling to the authority of their churches and to rebuff the pope. I've come to find that dislike of the Office of the pope is deep and widespread.

Did St. Athanasius reject the Filioque?
Papist
Papist

Posts : 11
Reputation : 17
Join date : 2013-02-25
Location : Baltimore

Back to top Go down

Filioque Clause  Empty Re: Filioque Clause

Post  Forum Janitor Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:50 pm

Earliest possible use was about 410, but some of the Fathers both Western and Eastern talks about it from WIki:

Church fathers
The writings of the early Church Fathers, both eastern and western, sometimes speak of the Holy Spirit as proceeding or spirating from the Father and the Son.
Before the creed of 381 became known in the West and even before it was adopted by the First Council of Constantinople, Christian writers in the West, of whom Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220), Jerome (347–420), Ambrose (c. 338 – 397) and Augustine (354–430) are representatives, spoke of the Spirit as coming from the Father and the Son,[10] while the expression “from the Father through the Son” is also found among them.[20][21]
Tertullian, writing at the beginning of the third century, emphasizes that Father, Son and Holy Spirit all share a single divine substance, quality and power,[22] which he conceives of as flowing forth from the Father and being transmitted by the Son to the Spirit.[23]
One Christian source for Augustine was Marius Victorinus (c. 280-365), who in his arguments against Arians strongly connected the Son and the Spirit.
Hilary of Poitiers, in the mid-fourth century, speaks of the Spirit as "coming forth from the Father" and being "sent by the Son" (De Trinitate 12.55); as being "from the Father through the Son" (ibid. 12.56); and as "having the Father and the Son as his source" (ibid. 2.29); in another passage, Hilary points to John 16.15 (where Jesus says: 'All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that [the Spirit] shall take from what is mine and declare it to you'), and wonders aloud whether "to receive from the Son is the same thing as to proceed from the Father" (ibid. 8.20).
Ambrose of Milan, writing in the 380s, openly asserts that the Spirit "proceeds from (procedit a) the Father and the Son", without ever being separated from either (On the Holy Spirit 1.11.20).
"None of these writers, however, makes the Spirit’s mode of origin the object of special reflection; all are concerned, rather, to emphasize the equality of status of all three divine persons as God, and all acknowledge that the Father alone is the source of God’s eternal being."[15]
As for the Greek Fathers, there is, according to A. Edward Siecienski, no citable basis for the claim historically made by both sides, that they explicitly either supported or denied the later theologies concerning the procession of the Spirit from the Son. However, they did enunciate important principles later invoked in support of one theology or the other. These included the insistence on the unique hypostatic properties of each Divine Person, in particular the Father's property of being, within the Trinity, the one cause, while they also recognized that the Persons, through distinct, cannot be separated, and that not only the sending of the Spirit to creatures but also the Spirit's eternal flowing forth (προϊέναι) from the Father within the Trinity is "through the Son" (διὰ τοῦ Υἱοῦ).[24]
Cyril of Alexandria, in particular, provides "a host of quotations that seemingly speak of the Spirit's 'procession' from both the Father and the Son". In these passages he uses the Greek verbs προϊέναι (like the Latin procedere) and προχεῖσθαι (flow from), not the verb ἐκπορεύεσθαι, the verb that appears in the Greek text of the Nicene Creed.[25]
Siecienski remarked that, "while the Greek fathers were still striving to find language capable of expressing the mysterious nature of the Son's relationship to the Spirit, Latin theologians, even during Cyril's lifetime, had already found their answer - the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (ex Patre et Filio procedentem). The degree to which this teaching was compatible with, or contradictory to, the emerging Greek tradition remains, sixteen centuries later, subject to debate."[26]
Yves Congar commented, "'The walls of separation do not reach as high as heaven.'"[27] And Aidan Nichols remarked that "the Filioque controversy is, in fact, a casualty of the theological pluralism of the patristic Church", on the one hand the Latin and Alexandrian tradition, on the other the Cappadocian and later Byzantine tradition.[28]

Forum Janitor
Forum Janitor
Admin

Posts : 235
Reputation : 565
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Forum Janitor

https://catholicforum.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum