Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Forum (No Salvation Outside the Church Forum)
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Latest topics
» The Unity of the Body (the Church, Israel)
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptySun Mar 17, 2024 9:23 am by tornpage

» Defilement of the Temple
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyTue Feb 06, 2024 7:44 am by tornpage

» Forum update
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptySat Feb 03, 2024 8:24 am by tornpage

» Bishop Williamson's Recent Comments
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 12:42 pm by MRyan

» The Mysterious 45 days of Daniel 12:11-12
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyFri Jan 26, 2024 11:04 am by tornpage

» St. Bonaventure on the Necessity of Baptism
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 7:06 pm by tornpage

» Isaiah 22:20-25
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyFri Jan 19, 2024 10:44 am by tornpage

» Translation of Bellarmine's De Amissione Gratiae, Bk. VI
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyFri Jan 19, 2024 10:04 am by tornpage

» Orestes Brownson Nails it on Baptism of Desire
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyThu Jan 18, 2024 3:06 pm by MRyan

» Do Feeneyites still exist?
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyWed Jan 17, 2024 8:02 am by Jehanne

» Sedevacantism and the Church's Indefectibility
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptySat Jan 13, 2024 5:22 pm by tornpage

» Inallible safety?
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyThu Jan 11, 2024 1:47 pm by MRyan

» Usury - Has the Church Erred?
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 11:05 pm by tornpage

» Rethink "Feeneyism"?
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 8:40 pm by MRyan

» SSPX cannot accept Vatican Council II because of the restrictions placed by the Jewish Left
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyFri Jan 05, 2024 8:57 am by Jehanne

» Anyone still around?
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyMon Jan 01, 2024 11:04 pm by Jehanne

» Angelqueen.org???
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptyTue Oct 16, 2018 8:38 am by Paul

» Vatican (CDF/Ecclesia Dei) has no objection if the SSPX and all religious communities affirm Vatican Council II (without the premise)
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptySun Dec 10, 2017 8:29 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Piazza Spagna - mission
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptySun Dec 10, 2017 8:06 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Fund,Catholic organisation needed to help Catholic priests in Italy like Fr. Alessandro Minutella
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner EmptySun Dec 10, 2017 7:52 am by Lionel L. Andrades


Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

3 posters

Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  MRyan Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:08 pm

More shrill distortion and propaganda from TIA.

But then again, what else is new?
MRyan
MRyan

Posts : 2314
Reputation : 2492
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  Guest Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:12 am

Ok so can you enlighten to us what Cardinal Ratzinger was really trying to say here?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  DeSelby Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:29 am

Yes, please help us out, MRyan. Elisa too. How can what is written by the then Fr. Ratzinger be squared with anything from the last 2000 years of Catholic Tradition?

Show us how it is taken out of context.

DeSelby
DeSelby

Posts : 211
Reputation : 231
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  hsilver Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:21 am

Re: MRyan calling TIA shrill propagandists-- TIA supports baptism of desire/baptism of blood. Boy, some people are never satisfied!
hsilver
hsilver

Posts : 12
Reputation : 17
Join date : 2011-01-01

Back to top Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  Guest Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:35 am

I think I would put this forward as evidence for those who say Pope Benedict was once liberal in his younger days and has grown more conservative since then. It's been forty years, and he's come a LONG way since then.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  MRyan Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:53 pm

RashaLampa wrote:Ok so can you enlighten to us what Cardinal Ratzinger was really trying to say here?
And this is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the other thread about the agenda of Tradition In Action, which you appear to have bought into hook, line and sinker. Your attitude is one of “See, the allegation appears to be true, and if you don’t think its true than the burden is on you to tell us what he was really saying”, as if the words themselves actually convict him. So we begin with an assumption of “guilt”, and it is up to me to prove why the assumption is not only rash, it is totally without basis.

Fine; let’s look at one of the “smoking gun” passages:

This is equivalent to those basic Christian dispositions that the New Covenant calls 'pistis' [faith] and 'agape [love].' It is the presence of these dispositions that distinguishes the 'anonymous Christians' (Rahner) from the pagans, while the absence of these dispositions characterizes hidden pagans from many Christians. One who has these dispositions has the 'essence of Christianity' and saves himself."
So where in this text does Father Ratzinger “defend the false theory” of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner? Where, in other words, does Father Ratzinger suggest that the dispositions of faith and love (the very 'essence of Christianity') are not the dispositions required for justification, or, that these same dispositions are not a “preparation for the Gospel”?

Nowhere does Fr. Ratzinger state or even suggest that the pagan can be saved where he is without the divine light of supernatural faith and without charity.

Furthermore, when he said “One who has these dispositions [of faith and charity] has the 'essence of Christianity' and saves himself”, he is not suggesting that someone who possesses these necessary dispositions can merit salvation on his own; he says this only in the context of Trent, where in Sess. 6, Ch. 5 (On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds) it declares:

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.
If Fr. Ratzinger was trying to put a positive “Catholic” spin on Rahner’s “theory” - so what? But let no man say that Fr. Ratzinger “defended” the “false” theory of Rahner’s without proof. This is not “proof”, it is circumstantial evidence that does not stand up to the light of truth, and it reflects an agenda to destroy the credibility of Pope Benedict XVI by shedding so called “light” on his writings as priest and then Cardinal Ratzinger.

I am not saying that much of what Fr. Ratzinger wrote is not troubling, or even seemingly heterodox; but it is quite another thing to accuse him of a “false” belief in the salvation dogma by this type of this out-of-context and circumstantial “evidence” which is nothing less than a hatchet job.

One just assumes Fr. Ratzinger was a liberal modernist (and still is), and here’s the “proof” - it proves nothing except the bias and agenda of the one presenting the false “evidence”.
MRyan
MRyan

Posts : 2314
Reputation : 2492
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  MRyan Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:57 pm

hsilver wrote:Re: MRyan calling Tradition In Action shrill propagandists-- Tradition In Action supports baptism of desire/baptism of blood. Boy, some people are never satisfied!

So "supporting" baptism of desire and baptism of blood is proof of what, exactly?

Luther defended the law of baptism and devotion to our Blessed Mother.

So what.
MRyan
MRyan

Posts : 2314
Reputation : 2492
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner Empty Re: Fr. Joseph Ratzinger defends the false theory of the 'anonymous Christian' by Karl Rahner

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum