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Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:35 pm

Flatterus,


I found my meeting with Father last Saturday to be most spiritually enriching. He is a very holy priest in my
humble opinion. We discussed many topics and truth and piety flowed in his words. Yes, we did discuss Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance. Most certainly they are Church teaching and must be believed by all Catholics as being worthy of belief. Your exchanges with MRyan, myself and others should at the very minimum give you reason to listen and obey the Church and not be so quick to attack past Popes on this subject who were Saints and the Vicar of Christ on earth! Please find below the reply from Father to me on the following canonized Saints who were catechumens:

. Mr. Brenner:

Here are the canonized catechumens I mentioned:
St. Emerentiana (Jan. 23)

St. Genesius of Arles (Aug. 25)

St. Victor of Braga (April 12)

St. Rogatian (May 24)

Saints Perpetua and Felicity were Baptized with water


St. Victor of Braga, Martyr


THIS city was a populous resort of the Romans; on which account it was watered with the blood of many martyrs in the persecution of Dioclesian. The names only of SS. Victor, Sylvester, Cucufas, Susana, and Torquatus have reached us. Their triumphs are honoured in that church, and recorded by Vasæus in his chronicle, and other Spanish historians. St. Victor, who is mentioned in the Roman Martyrology on the 12th of April, was a catechumen, who, refusing to sacrifice to idols, was condemned to lose his head, and baptized in his own blood. See F. Thomas ab Incarnatione. Hist. Portug. Sæc. 4, c. 6, p. 218.

Sts. Donatian and Rogatian

Brothers of a Roman-Gallo noble family of Nantes, France. Donatian was arrested and soon joined by Rogatian. They were tortured and beheaded by Pictovarius under co-Emperor Diocletian


St. Emerentiana


In the Holy Office today we celebrate the feast of St Emerentiana, of whom the martyrology says:

"At Rome, the holy virgin and martyr, St. Emerentiana. Being yet a catechumen, she was stoned to death by the heathens while praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, her foster sister."

and

St. Genesius of Aries


You must realize Flatterus, that Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are Church teaching
describing conditions of mind and heart that are described as worthy of Salvation to be judged by God. And no God is not bound by the Sacraments for God is God. I found it quite comforting in my discussion that my beliefs were once again confirmed and even strengthened. When we discussed Invincible Ignorance I was reinforced in hearing that the Church must do all in her power and teaching mission to instruct the ignorant. I saved the best news for last for you, Flatterus. I pray and hope that you find comfort in what I am about to say and recant your errors and be the Catholic that I know that you want to be.

There is absolutely no contradiction between No Salvation outside the Catholic Church and Church teaching on Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance.: ◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)" ..... such a powerful, accurate and obligatory pronouncement that is commanded for the Church to embrace and teach for all time. This certainty along with Baptism by Water are the teaching mission of the Church that must be taught to all people and nations. All must be taught that the must stay, return or join the Catholic Church to gain Salvation.
Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance are the Church taught recognition of conditions as taught by the church and must be believed. They are not part of the teaching mission as commanded by Jesus and the Church. They exist in perfect spiritual harmony, so help me God.

God Bless you,

George



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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  MRyan on Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:33 pm

flatterus wrote:
MRyan wrote: Hubris. Imagine comparing “the divorced and remarried can receive communion” with “Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death … An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism”. The former heterodoxy has zero precedent in the entire history of the Church, the latter, beginning with St. Cyprian, is a universal teaching contested by no one, not one single subsequent saint, pope doctor or theologian.

The above is simply not true.
In other words, it is true to say that “the divorced and remarried can receive communion” and “An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism” are both egregious heresies, and thus, both stand condemned by the Church.

Someone forgot to tell Pope Pius XII that he was a heretic, for where on earth could he have gotten the idea that “An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism”, when this heresy was specifically condemned, according to flatterme, by Pope Pius III at the Council of Trent?

One would think the popes would know the “true” meaning of the clear words of a dogmatic canonical definition, ya know, and to quit having this egregious heresy promulgated in universal Roman Catechisms, Canon Law, a papal Allocution and the documents of a Vatican Council.

Speaking of Trent and the Roman Catechism, on adjourning, the Council of Trent

“asked the supreme pontiff to ratify all its decrees and definitions. This petition was complied with by Pope Pius IV, on 26 January 1564, in the papal bull, Benedictus Deus, which enjoins strict obedience upon all Roman Catholics and forbids, under pain of excommunication, all unauthorised interpretation, reserving this to the Pope alone and threatens the disobedient with "the indignation of Almighty God and of his blessed apostles, Peter and Paul." Pope Pius appointed a commission of cardinals to assist him in interpreting and enforcing the decrees.

The Index librorum prohibitorum was announced in 1564 and the following books were issued with the papal imprimatur: the Profession of the Tridentine Faith and the Tridentine Catechism (1566), the Breviary (1568), the Missal (1570) and the Vulgate (1590 and then 1592). (Wikipedia)
Pius IV died and was succeeded on January 17, 1566, by Pius V. The Introduction to the Catechism of the Council of Trent (Tan edition) continues:

One of the first acts of the new Pontiff was to appoint a number of expert theological revisors to examine every statement in the Catechism from the viewpoint of doctrine. Chief among them were Cardinal Sirlet and the two Dominicans, Thomas Manriquez and Eustachius Locatelli. By July of that year the work on the Catechism was finished”.
Though the original Catechism manuscript is non extant, “of innumerable Latin editions that have appeared, the earliest are: The Manutian (Rome, 1566) …by command of Pope Pius V”.  

But flatterme would have us believe that despite promulgating all of the decrees and canonical definitions of the Council of Trent, with the promise of excommunication to any unauthorized interpretation, and despite having “appointed a commission of cardinals to assist him in interpreting and enforcing the decrees” (wait, why did he need “assistance”, don’t the dogmatic words speak for themselves), and despite having appointed “a number of expert theological revisors to examine every statement in the Catechism from the viewpoint of doctrine”, somehow, the following egregious heresy on a matter of faith slipped by EVERYONE, and would continue to slip by pope after subsequent pope, in age after age, with these same Pontiffs praising the doctrinal integrity of this same Roman Catechism to the skies:

On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.
But seriously, is this blatant heresy, coupled with the same universal consensus of the doctors and theologians, ANY excuse for Pope Pius XII to teach “An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism”?

Seriously, where did come up with THAT piece of heretical twaddle? Doesn’t he know how to read the dogmatic canons of his predecessor, Pope Pius III? Doesn’t he understand the meaning of plain English, I mean plain Latin?

Flatterme does, just ask him/her.
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  flatterus on Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:19 am

I don't base my Faith on whether or not the masses believe as I do. If I was the only person on earth that believed God's Word, so be it. Popularity is no motive for me.

It is truly unfortunate baptism of desire advocates refuse to listen, staking the salvation of souls on a false promise nobody will ever be able to prove exists. From a fatalistic point of view, the only thing that could happen to me for trusting God's infallible teachings and believing Trent literally is that despite my attempt to honor God's teachings in order to protect the necessity of the sacrament of baptism, someone might go to heaven without baptism. God be praised.

But the converse is not so kind. What will become those who spread an empty promise that undermines the necessity of baptism to the detriment of souls?

God will not punish anyone who defends the Catholic teaching that the sacrament of baptism is necessary. But if one doesn't defend that sacred and humanly tangible gift of regeneration by the merciful God, anathema looms.

Continuing argument is unnecessary, as it will only prove obstinacy and show lack of concern for your soul and the souls of others. The only thing left to say for either side of this discussion is the hope that prayer and sacrifice bring light.

God bless,

flatterus

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  MRyan on Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:21 am

flatterus wrote:I don't base my Faith on whether or not the masses believe as I do.  If I was the only person on earth that believed God's Word, so be it.  Popularity is no motive for me.

Well, such a noble and heroic stand, even if it is Protestant to the core.  

Go ahead and shake your fist at Pope St. Pius V, Gregory XIII, Clement XIII, Innocent III, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV and Pius XII; shake your fist at the greatest Doctors (and saints) of the Church to include Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, Bernard of Clairveaux, Albert the Great, Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Peter Canisius, Robert Bellarmine and Alphonsus de Liguori; shake your fist at each and every of the scholastic theologians and manualists – not a single one of whom “denied” the baptism of blood and desire, and every one of whom who weighed in on this topic affirmed the same doctrine.

Shake your fist at the Roman Catechisms, Canon Law and a papal Allocution; yes, indeed, shake your fist at these “masses” of men and accuse each and every one of them, some of them possessing universal ordinary magisterial authority, of teaching a universal heresy, and then wallow in your “I don’t care if I stand alone” arrogance as if you are fit to tie the theological sandal of a single one of these great men.

Go ahead, shake your fist at “the aggregate labors of the most distinguished of the Fathers of Trent” who appointed “expert theological revisors to examine every statement in the Catechism [of Trent] from the viewpoint of doctrine”, and accuse them and every single subsequent pope to our present day - of heresy for not only failing to condemn and expunge this egregious heresy hiding in plain sight in the Roman Catechisms’ section on Baptism, but of positively endorsing its content as if the doctrine were true.

Indeed, the “motive” for submitting intellect and will to the universal ordinary magisterium of the Church on the truth of a universal doctrine that is clearly spelled out in every edition of the Roman Catechism since 1566, and is universally affirmed by the greatest Doctors and theologians of the Church -- is deemed “popularity” when it runs afoul of a layman who says he knows how to read.  Heck, he can even diagram the English translation of Session 6, Ch. 4 and tell us precisely what the Fathers of Trent meant when employing “cannot” and “without”, all the while ignoring the Latin text and the rules of Latin grammar which render his amateurish “interpretation” false.

He is also a master of citing saints such as St. Ambrose while ignoring the same saint’s affirmation of baptism of desire in his funeral oration for Valentinian:

(51) But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request? But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified his desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore it is said: ‘By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest’ (Wisdom 4:7).

(52) Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to Thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation. Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security. If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish. Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected … He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace?

(53) Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.
The baptism of desire is not a “false promise”, it is an infallible doctrine of the universal ordinary magisterium of the Church that affirms that “An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism”, and “should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.”   

If the doctrine has been abused, and it clearly has been, it is not the fault of the doctrine, but of weak men, for the baptism of desire does NOT render the sacrament of Baptism “optional” or “unnecessary”, neither does it turn the words of our Lord in John 3:5 into a “metaphor” for Baptism, and neither does it deny that true and natural water is absolutely necessary for a valid sacrament.

It simply affirms what the Church has always affirmed, as Master Peter Lombard points out, that in certain instances, when the proper dispositions are present, “God did not bind his power by the Sacraments.” In other words, God is not bound by the sacraments to draw men to heaven (Cf. Job 33:15-18). St. Thomas Aquinas affirms the same as he points out “It belongs to the excellence of Christ power, that He (Christ) could bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the exterior sacrament.”
 
Disagree all you want, flatterus, but your accusation of heresy against the Fathers, Doctors and the Church herself, is inexcusable.

But leave the kitchen if you must, its getting a bit hot.
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Even More on the substitute for baptism

Post  flatterus on Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:59 pm

I'll say it again, the only judgement from God for trusting His infallible teachings and believing Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus and Trent literally is that one will find himself more highly motivated for the souls of poor sinners and will bust a gut to obtain baptism for them. No anathema for that. What if there is no baptism of desire? What will become of those who spread an empty promise that relieves them of all responsibility to the detriment of souls? Talk about a hot kitchen.

Advocates of baptism of desire have no concern Catholics think most of the world will be saved, instead, baptism of desire advocates rage against people like me who actually believe the infallible canons in Trent! It's like the Novus Ordo Church who refuses to oust the gays, but spend their last breath condemning the SSPX.

What does it benefit you or any Catholic to believe in baptism without water? Just so you can think pleasant things about the departed? baptism of desire does not make anyone a member of the Church and that it does not remit Original Sin. Ah, but! No worries, we feel better believing it!

When the empty shell of a kinder, gentler baptism replaces the true sacrament, (like a kinder gentler mass replaces another) a more menacing ulterior motive by Satan will be made clear.

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  Jehanne on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:34 am

Mike,

It is interesting that you did not reply to my question of a few months ago about public adulterers receiving the Blessed Sacrament.

In any case, a "very, very old" debate here.  We all, however, acknowledge the following as being true:

It is the Will of the One and Triune God that all of we, His Creation, receive Sacramental Baptism.  The Roman Catechism teaches this infallible truth:

Necessity of Baptism

If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that the law of Baptism, as established by our Lord, extends to all, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction. Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In this sense, sacramental Baptism is not optional; one can never, ever choose not to be Baptized.  Question is, "Does the omnipotent Triune God allow some His Elect to die without the Waters of Baptism?"  In some cases, "no"; we know this to be so because of accounts of miracles where God, miraculously, provided water where it was impossible to obtain otherwise.  As for other alleged catechumens and others who ended their lives without the Waters of Baptism, the answer is, in my opinion, "maybe," at best.
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:55 pm


To date on this forum or for that matter no person that have I referred to the writings of the Saintly Father Frederick Faber have rebuked or disagreed with anything he had to say in his understanding and love of our Catholic Faith. Of course there is a first time for anything:

The year was 1860. I post this for your prayers and reflections. The following quotations taken from:



The Precious Blood or The Price of Our Salvation

By Frederick William Faber DD,

As found in the quotations below here is the wisdom to believe and obey as taught by the Church and Father Faber whom we trust as a loyal and obedient Catholic.
"We do not bind God further than he has been pleased to bind himself. We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy. But we MUST remember that his ordinary law is, that there is no Salvation whatever outside the Roman Church"

Page72
" Christian charity can only sustain its equanimity by fixing it's eyes upon a higher object than the misery which it relieves."


Pages 92 & 93



" If the precious Blood had been shed, and yet we had no priesthood, no sacraments, no sacramentals, no jurisdiction, no mystical life of the visible unity of the Church----life so it seems, would be almost intolerable. This is the condition of those outside the Church; and certainly as we grow older, as our experience widens, as our knowledge of ourselves deepens, as our acquaintance with mankind increases, the less hopeful do our ideas become regarding the salvation of those outside the Roman Church. we make the most we can of the uncovenanted mercies of God, of the invisible soul of the Church, of the teaching of invincible ignorance, of the easiness of making acts of contrition, and of the visible moral goodness among men; and YET what are these but straws in our own estimation; if our own chances of salvation had to lean their weight upon them? They wear out or they break down. They are fearfully counterweighted by other considerations. We have to draw on our imaginations in order to fill up the picture. They are but theories at best, theories unhelpful except to console those who are forward to be deceived for the sake of those they love,-- theories often very fatal by keeping our charity in check and interfering with that restlessness of converting love in season and out of seasons, and that impetuous agony of prayer, upon which God may have made the salvation of our friends depend. Alas ! the more familiar we ourselves become with the operations of grace, the further we advance into the spiritual life, the more we meditate on the character of God, and taste in contemplation the savor of his holiness, the more to our eyes does grace magnify itself inside the Church, and the more dense and forlorn becomes the darkness which is spread over those outside...... Would not the divine assurance of our salvation be a very heaven begun on earth? Yet the sacraments are the nearest approach to such a sweet assurance as the love of our heavenly Father saw to be expedient for the multitude of his children..... In truth, no created intelligence of angel or of man could have imagined it."

Pages 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231 & 232


" Hence it follows that all true devotion to the Precious Blood MUST be accompanied by a hearty devotion to the Church. Heresies, which have done despite to the Precious Blood by narrowing its sphere or by limiting its prodigality, have also been distinguished by want of loyalty to the Church. In ALL times we have seen that those who take a rigid view about the easiness of salvation ALSO take a lax view about the exclusive privileges of communion with the Church; while on the other hand, those who dwell more strongly on the doctrine of EXCLUSIVE SALVATION in the true Church are also most given to magnify the abundance of redeeming grace within its pale. At first sight it seems a strange inconsistency, that those who make it hard to be saved in the Church should make it comparatively easy to be saved out of it. ...... Yet so it is that a light esteem of the overwhelming advantages of the Church, and a want of appreciation of the sacraments, go along with the most rigid and harsh views regarding the easiness of salvation and the number of the saved; and these errors go together for want of a true and tender devotion to the Precious Blood. The doctrine of the Sacraments is the touchstone of all theology of the day."


"Now that the world is overrun with heresy, and that in social life almost all distinctions between the faithful and others are obliterated, it is convenient to men's ease and acceptable to their cowardice to regard the faith as one of many saving
options, and the church as one of many saving institutions." `


"The Church is a kingdom, not a literature--a life, not a congeries of doctrines; it is a rule and a sovereignty , a royalty which belongs to the Royalty of the Precious Blood. We MUST look at the Church habitually as the sole ark in the deluge of the world, the sole mistress of Salvation. We do not bind God further than he has been pleased to bind himself. We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy. But we MUST remember that his ordinary law is, that there is no Salvation whatever outside the Roman Church......No near approaches, no sensible devotions, no felt actual graces, will make a man a living member of Jesus Christ, without communion with the Holy See. We must be jealous of the uncompromising simplicity of this old-fashioned doctrine. We must be suspicious of all the fine words and specious theories, and ingenious abatements, which the spirit of the day would suggest. We must be misled by no circumstances of TIME or place, by no prevalence of heresy, by no arguments drawn from consequences, which are the affair of God's government of the world...not ours."

" The sins of men cannot change the truth of God. They are at His mercy, not He at theirs. In the days of the antichrist, when two-thirds even of the faithful shall fall away from the Church, their apostasy will not make it less the exclusive mistress of Salvation. We must be loyal to the church in our least thoughts of it, nor even talk lightly of its majesty. We must put faith in it in all its contracts and concussions with the world, and in all its contradictions of the assumed grandeur of this nineteenth century, which is more than half spent, and has done nothing yet to justify its boasting, We must not measure the Church by unsupernatural standards, which it is the world's great object to persuade us to do .We must not be ashamed of it because it holds back when it seems grander to go forward. We must not be discontented with it when its action intersects some little favorite anticipations of our own. we must merge our own selves and our own views in its consciously or unconsciously Spirit Guided policy. When we are perplexed, we must stand still and believe. Silence makes us great-hearted and judging makes us little minded, We must like its ways, as well as obey its precepts and believe its doctrines. We must not theorize; for if we once begin to theorize, we shall soon come to sneer. A mind NOT under authority always lies under a necessity of being pert. When the Church suffers, or souls suffer, we must not be content with the selfish consolation that, after all, the Church is eternal, and MUST conquer in the long run; but we must have an active sympathy with all its present vicissitudes, and an untiring zeal and unquenchable thirst for souls; and the Salvation of souls is a matter of the present; it cannot wait for the future, because men are dying daily."
END
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There are no exceptions whatsoever to no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. Everyone who enters Heaven is Catholic.

My appreciation to MRyan for formulating my rough draft to the following:

" The Catholic Church assures us
that those who are translated to a state of grace through
the laver and spirit of regeneration, as well as through the
extra-sacramental baptisms of blood and desire, will be
saved. The divine and ecclesiastical command that all men be
baptized in water and the spirit applies to every man
without exception. Outside the Church, there is no
salvation."

....and finally with humility as Catholics we are compelled out of love and obedience for our Catholic faith to
Live our `faith as follows:

We must obey Church teaching on Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance as the Church understands it. If we can not understand or comprehend the teaching then a true act of faith and submission to its teaching is most acceptable.
With that is mind the sin of presumption mandates that: IT IS CONDEMNED BY CHURCH TEACHING FOR ANY CATHOLIC TO PRESUME THAT ANYONE ALIVE WHO IS NOT CATHOLIC WILL BE SAVED.WHEREAS IT IS CHURCH TEACHING THAT THOSE WHO DIE AS CATHOLICS IN A STATE OF GRACE AND FREE FROM MORTAL SIN WILL MOST DEFINETLY BE SAVED. WE ARE COMMANDED BY JESUS AND THE CHURCH TO TEACH ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH FOR ALL TIME THAT THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ONE BAPTISM OF WATER FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. EVERYONE MUST ENTER, RETURN OR STAY WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM / Syllabus of Errors +++ Pope Pius IX

Condemned......NEVER to be undone

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given
to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.











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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  flatterus on Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:49 pm


George, you said: We must obey Church teaching on Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance as the Church understands it. If we can not understand or comprehend the teaching then a true act of faith and submission to its teaching is most acceptable.

This paragraph is amusing to me. I must obey the Church teaching on Baptism of desire and blood? How do I actually do that? Close my eyes and think about all the people going to heaven without baptism? What good does that do, even if its true? It does nothing whatsoever! Also, its wrong because by hoping that people go to heaven without baptism, I contradict the perennial teaching of the Church.

What is baptism of desire, anyway? A departing desire for baptism. What does that have to do with me? What about that is any of my business? My beliefs about someones desires or consequent destiny are useless.

Why should I (or anybody) believe in baptism of desire? So I too can feel better about the departed who perilously evaded the sacrament of Faith? Are you serious? Do I also have to assume that God cannot get baptism for some people? I simply do not believe that!

What else do I have to believe? That God is super merciful? I already believe that. God gave everyone baptism to save souls and made clear to the ones who would listen to employ it because there's no salvation outside the Church.

I just pulled up a page on baptism/desire and the descriptions blew my mind. Nothing WHATSOEVER about the glorious, august sacrament of baptism; nothing about God's great mercy and majesty, the tangible beauty of putting on the new man, or wearing the wedding garment. Nothing as glorious as the description of the hand of God reaching down to His enemy, pouring out water and the Holy Spirit to apply Christ's sufferings to each one in baptism and providing those with true hope of dying in the arms of the heavenly Mother Mary. Nor did it touch on the punishment if one fails to be baptized as it was too busy busting out on baptism of desire. While the article certainly covered most basics of baptism and baptism of desire, besides being incorrect, it was incredibly empty and sterile.

Poor Father Hardon (rip) spends much of his time (and ours) explaining fluminus, 'desire', and flaminus, 'of wind" (yawn). (an unflattering rehash of St. Alphonsus.) Father goes on and on about flamen, ex opere operantis, and finally, the new-to-me, "quasi ex opere operato"! What the...?? Why am I so surprised? Modern descriptions of baptism are awash in all kinds of quasi fluminus flaminus.

The poor bloke actually had the nerve to describe baptism as "an extended rite that includes water."

No worries, however, Padre believed in baptism of desire.

--flatterus

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:50 pm

Flatterus,

You must not have read thy wise and truthful words of Father Faber or you would not continue your rant. My understanding of Church teaching is explained very clearly by Father. For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear let them believe.

Once again I post what Father said. If you persist and disagree with what father said in the 1860's there is not much more that I can say or tell you. So I post this for you yet again as follows

From Father Frederick Faber:
"The Church is a kingdom, not a literature--a life, not a congeries of doctrines; it is a rule and a sovereignty , a royalty which belongs to the Royalty of the Precious Blood. We MUST look at the Church habitually as the sole ark in the deluge of the world, the sole mistress of Salvation.

We do NOT bind God further than he has been pleased to bind himself. We do NOT limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy.

But we MUST remember that his ordinary law is, that there is no Salvation whatever outside the Roman Church......No near approaches, no sensible devotions, no felt actual graces, will make a man a living member of Jesus Christ, without communion with the Holy See. We must be jealous of the uncompromising simplicity of this old-fashioned doctrine. We must be suspicious of all the fine words and specious theories, and ingenious abatements, which the spirit of the day would suggest. We must be misled by no circumstances of TIME or place, by no prevalence of heresy, by no arguments drawn from consequences, which are the affair of God's government of the world...not ours."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Baptism of Desire , Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are completely irrelevant in our teaching what Jesus and the Church commands to all Catholics and that is once again for the umpteenth time commanded that all people must enter, return or stay in the Catholic Church and be baptized with water in order to be saved. There are never circumstances that would allow us to teach or presume that someone will be saved by any other formula. Never the less, the Church teaches and most assuredly recognizes that these conditions of sanctity as described by the Church if and when they exist which is always outside of the ordinary teaching formula do place their souls before God for his judgement as He wills and in the manner that He wills. These conditions are clearly described by the Church

God has already judged billions of souls over the last 2000 years since the beginning of The Catholic Church which was after the resurrection of Jesus. Each and every one of these souls are as uniquely different as a snowflake or fingerprint. This issue has been settled in Heaven by God for all eternity many times over. It is not for me or you to question the far reaching excesses of God's justice and mercy.

Once again I repeat to you Flatterus this issue has NEVER come up in my conversations and/or attempts to convert someone to the Catholic Church. No one has ever said to me that they were not Catholic but going to be a Catholic Martyr or that desired to be a Catholic and maybe one of these days They might get around to it. Most, well practically all just say that what I tell them about the Catholic Church is wrong or they do not agree that the Catholic Church is the only ark of Salvation that all must belong or hundreds of other denials. Jesus made it very simple for us to simply teach all that they must belong to the Catholic Church, baptism by water and subject to the Pope.

The Catholic Church is a living, breathing institution that continues to develop and explain what must be believed by the Church Militant . Church teaching must have truth and continuity with the past centuries of teaching and truth can NEVER be undone or contradicted but is constantly being revealed with more beauty and understanding. Although the Immaculate Conception was a common believe for centuries that was held by many in the Church it took until 1854 and Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus that this believe became dogmatically defined that all Catholics must embrace and believe. Church teaching on the eternal destiny of what happens to unbaptized babies and those who are aborted is still in the process of Church development and understanding. We have gone from thinking that these souls are going to a hell of fire to a hell of no fire to limbo and different degrees of pain or no pain or the inability to partake in vision of God to now "hope' that they all may be in Heaven with God. What I believe is that these precious souls have for almost 2000 years gone to where God sends them and it is the perfect situation for I love God and God is God.

As far as catechumens who have already been pronounced Saints by the Church for all to believe, I am sure Flatterus that you demand that God had them baptized with water or he is not true to his word. I am sure that you think that God bound Himself to the Sacraments. I am sure that you think you can condemn countless Saints, Popes, Doctors of the Church, the Magisterium, Cannon law, priests, laymen and even lowly sinners like me because they are not in line with your private interpretation. I pray and hope that many deserve to go to Heaven according to the will of God I pray and hope that you go to Heaven, Flatterus. What will you do if you get to Heaven and see all of these whom you have condemned looking at you. You can not pick and choose what you want to believe and I pray that you recant and change your current stance.

God Bless You......and so we pray

George






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More on baptism of desire

Post  flatterus on Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:07 pm

Ok, so it hasn't come up in your conversations? That's odd. But I'll accept that. With a heads up. The more you know the subtleties, the more it will manifest itself. Keep praying. I will too.

flatterus

P.S. I did read everything you sent. Everything Fr. Faber said supported everything correctly. He referred to it as "straw" that "wear out or they break down" and "theories often very fatal by keeping our charity in check and interfering with that restlessness of converting love in season and out of seasons" I know. A good portion of what I'm so passionate about in defending the Church comes from reading Fr. Faber.

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:18 pm


Flatterus,

No one has ever brought up in any conversation during my entire life that they are going to be saved by Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire or Invincible Ignorance. They all will argue, disagree or oppose with their own free will the command of Jesus that they can not be saved outside the Catholic Church and having had Baptism by water. On the other hand you claim in your case that it does come up in your life encounters. I am curious as to what circumstances that someone has told you that they will be saved by these conditions. The great majority of people simply say that they are going to Heaven or their beliefs ( or lack thereof ) and enough of my Catholic faith nonsense.
I believe all that I quoted from Father Faber and find his words to flow with spiritual and sacred poetry. You dismiss his recognition of the mercies of God which are BOUNDLESS as just straw. You can not pick and choose what Father had to say any more than you can pick and choose from Church teaching as you do.
Many Saints as I know you are aware have taught and written on the fewness of those who are saved.
During lent I am re reading the Church approved book 'Fatima in Lucia's own Words' which are the translated memoirs of Sister Lucy which also appear in the book. Our lady shows the children the vision of hell which is so frightening that the it is shortened so as not to scare them to death. Why do I know that you already this.
Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are completely and totally irrelevant to teaching what Jesus and the Church commanded us in that there is NO Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and everyone must have Baptism by water or they will not be saved. This is the ordinary teaching and all in the Church from Pope to lowly sinner MUST teach that all that they must enter, return or stay in the Catholic church. This command to teach expires at a person's death and we can never know what God knows or what may occur with their dying breath or other circumstances known to God (Unless the Church professes someone a Saint) We are forbidden to stand over a grave and declare that are in hell. How dare you tell God with what Father Faber calls boundless mercies as straw. Father Faber said: "We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy"
But Flatterus declares that God's mercies are limited and Flatterus tells God how those mercies will be administered.

God Bless you,

George



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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  flatterus on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:45 pm

I'm not talking about people who think they'll get baptism of desire. I'm talking about Catholics who think family members outside the Church, friends, and aborted children will get baptism of desire! That is the playground where the heresy of baptism of desire molests the hearts and minds of Catholics, keeping them paralyzed with some happy notion that also prevents them from having to bother.

Here's a compilation of just a fraction of the sentiments I've heard:

*I can't tell my kids about the Church because we fight; That's not good! God can truly, actually save them with baptism of desire.
*My cousins don't know better, but God is merciful and won't hurt them by sending them to hell.
*I'm afraid to explain the faith because my folks don't believe in God like we do. God gets the hard cases baptism of desire if they want it.
*I can't tell my dying father anything; and besides, I don't understand the Faith enough to explain it well enough. I'm not even going to try to do God's job."
*I hate the clinic down the street, but its comforting that God will be merciful to those innocent babies and get them baptism of desire.

I've personally encountered dozens of Catholics who refused, in some way, to help people, even on their deathbed, bowing out because God takes care of things that they themselves do not want to do. I've also heard many Catholics who firmly believe that they know of someone who got baptism of desire because, despite that someone was an atheist or non-Catholic, he was a good person.
One Catholic acquaintance told my friend not to worry about her dying mother who was already baptized (Lutheran). "Your mother loves God, she just doesn't understand. Don't upset yourself and don't bother her with things she can't deal with right now. God is merciful and will provide clarity, even baptism of desire, if she needs it."

This last one is not exactly baptism of desire since the woman was Lutheran, but fallout from believing baptism of desire and that God works invisibly without our involvement is clearly misunderstood and could have cost the opportunity to reach the woman. Fortunately, I kicked my friend's backside until she faced her mother a week before she died. The woman would not relent for 20 years. Because my friend bothered, the woman finally accepted the Catholic faith from her daughter... precisely because my friend DID NOT listen to the baptism of desire people! And although frightened about intervening again, my friend made a determination to do everything in her power first, and then trust God. And never again fall for the false hopes of the baptism of desire religion.

Father Faber totally destroyed baptism of desire in the paragraphs you sent! FF said: "We must be suspicious of all the fine words and specious theories, and ingenious abatements, which the spirit of the day would suggest." And! "...these errors go together for want of a true and tender devotion to the Precious Blood." He is incinerating the "specious theories" of baptism of desire!

But FF is not finished! He continues to destroy any notions of baptism of desire: "We must be misled by no circumstances of TIME or place (circumstances do not prevent God from getting the sacrament to anyone), by no prevalence of heresy (Fr. alludes to baptism of desire right here as being a prevalent heresy), by no arguments drawn from consequences (can't say person died before God could get them baptism), which are the affair of God's government of the world...not ours". (which is a dismissal of duty to God by suggesting its God's business to take care of His own world) FF: "No near approaches, no sensible devotions, no felt actual graces, will make a man a living member of Jesus Christ, without communion with the Holy See." Near approaches and actual grace won't do...got to be IN the Church!

Father continues further still:
"We must not theorize; for if we once begin to theorize, we shall soon come to sneer." (baptism of desire is a theory that brings loss of faith!)

Conversely, FF says: "while on the other hand, those who dwell more strongly on the doctrine of EXCLUSIVE SALVATION in the true Church are also most given to magnify the abundance of redeeming grace within its pale."

Awesome! Those who remain firm in the doctrine (of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) magnify the truth of mercy found within the Church!

Where do you get baptism of desire out of FF's words? Because FF mentions mercy? Let's look at the sentences you mention:
FF says: "we make the most we can of the uncovenanted mercies of God (we attempt to make the most of baptism of desire), of the invisible soul of the Church (baptism of desire), of the teaching of invincible ignorance(baptism of desire), of the easiness of making acts of contrition (baptism of desire), and of the visible moral goodness among men (assumed in those who get baptism of desire); and YET what are these but straws in our own estimation; if our own chances of salvation had to lean their weight upon them?

FF is saying that those notions are straws! That if we had to lean on them, we would be horrified! That no Catholic would want our own chances to depend on such emptiness! Then FF really goes ham on baptism of desire saying of it: " They (the notions of baptism of desire) wear out or they break down. They are fearfully counterweighted by other considerations. We have to draw on our imaginations in order to fill up the picture. They are but theories at best, theories unhelpful except to console those who are forward to be deceived for the sake of those they love,-- theories often very fatal by keeping our charity in check (this is what have I been saying all along!!!)and interfering with that restlessness of converting love in season and out of seasons, and that impetuous agony of prayer, upon which God may have made the salvation of our friends depend.

FF calls baptism of desire theories "unhelpful", except by those who want to be deceived. baptism of desire notions are 'fatal' by keeping our charity in check. They 'interfere' with conversions and 'undermine' the impetuous agony of prayer which we will commit ourselves to if we do not believe in such theories and upon which God may have made the salvation of our friends depend!

FF continues...
"We do not bind God further than he has been pleased to bind himself. " Here, FF admits God has bound himself to the sacrament!

You seem to suggest that if God does not save people outside of baptism that He isn't being merciful? That is ridiculous, and borderline blasphemous.

Are you saying circumstances exist that prevent God from getting the sacrament of baptism to a person? Seriously?

God absolutely can, and does get the sacrament of baptism for all the elect. Once you see that's true, there is no baptism of desire, no need to undermine dogma, or turn dogma into metaphors, no need to twist Christ's words or Father Faber's words so they better fit a heresy.

If you continue to hold baptism of desire because you think God isn't merciful unless he breaks a rule now and then, or that He cannot get the sacrament of baptism to someone who wants it before they die, you need to rethink the nature of the Almighty. (notice the 'or' in this sentence works like an 'and' ...just like 'laver of regeneration or the desire thereof'--you need both!)

--flatterus

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:24 am

Flatterus,

For starters the conversations that I have had for decades are almost exclusively about the salvation of the person that I am talking with and not their friend, relative, someone down the street etc. In these cases no one has ever uttered to me the words Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance in describing how they will achieve salvation for themselves. Never! I do not believe in hindsight that they ever even heard of these terms let alone had the where with all to use them. I believe you Flatterus but find it incredibly interesting that in some of your encounters that people have used these terms with you in justifying in their own mind how other people in their lives will be saved. I mean come on Flatterus for someone to even use these terms they would have to be versed in Church teaching. Do you not ask them what is their view on the necessity of the belonging to The Catholic Church and baptism of water for their
own salvation? They all sound like very lax Catholics to me. How could they be devout Catholics and yet tell you these very theories and nonsense that Father Faber is talking about could merit Salvation. Yes the Church and people teach, believe and say these atrocities all the time but that is not the teaching mission of the Church.

Regarding baptism of blood and baptism of desire,you have had numerous posts sent to you on EXACTLY what the Church describes as the state of sanctity that a person MUST possess in order to be worthy of salvation subject to the judgement and mercy of God. If a person achieved Salvation in this state of sanctity they are not exceptions and are fully Catholic as they enter Heaven.
.
You are suddenly a Father fan and now you have the nerve to adapt his words to your wrong conclusions .Father Faber is clearly saying how nearly impossible and improbable it is to imagine the difficulty of salvation without being a member of the Catholic Church, baptized with water along with the Holy sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacraments and of course confession for the forgiveness of sins. He is not talking about baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood as you claim with great error. You conveniently quote some of his words out of context and leave out the most damming to your erroneous claims. What Father said in context was:
We do not bind God further than he has been pleased to bind himself. We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy. But we MUST remember that his ordinary law is, that there is no Salvation whatever outside the Roman Catholic Church.

Catechumens who have been pronounced Saints by the Church did not need Flatterus to tell them or God that they must have been baptized with water. God is not bound by the Sacraments for as Father Faber and the Church has taught : WE DO NOT LIMIT THE FAR REACHING EXCESSES OF GOD:S MERCY... which is the exact opposite of what you believe, Flatterus.

and so we pray.

George
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:36 am

Flatterus,
Close ******, but you are not quite there yet because you are still in obvious contradiction with yourself.

When you say: " If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma " you are absolutely correct and then you immediately turn around and contradict yourself when you say: " The experiences of the saints confirm the dogmatic teaching.St. Francis Xavier mentions persons who returned back to the earth after being physically dead, only to be baptised with water.So this is the way God has chosen for all to be saved- the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
The two statements are in complete contradiction with each other. The experience of the Saints do not confirm that God MUST baptize with water for as you say correctly "if God chose to save a person without the sacraments it would be known to God only" You can not have it both ways.
We can not even imagine the billions of conditions over the last 2000 years that have presented themselves to God at each particular judgement.
In my weekly visits to the hospital I come into contact with all kinds of situations that give reason to appreciate and leave ludgement to God. For example I visited a patient with brain cancer about to die who had no religious beliefs and I explained the necessity and beauty of the Catholic Church and the necessity for salvation. Although he did not visibly convert to the Catholic Church as far as I know how could we ever know that in his heart and with perfect sorrow he did not pray to God to help him as he was dying?. Neither you nor I could possibly know if this did or did not happen. You would say if he did make this prayer to God and God welcomed him into Heaven as a Catholic(no exceptions) then you would demand that God had him baptized with water. The Church teaches that we defer this to God with NO reservations, restrictions or council. You must get beyond your position and then what you have undertaken as your life
struggle in your intense love of our Catholic faith will take root and you will be instrumental in the fight to restore our Catholic Faith.

We the Church Millitant are commanded and completely embrace the truth that all Catholics must teach to ALL that that they must enter, stay or return to the Catholic Church and that they must have Baptism by water in order to be saved. Even if we thought God forbid, that someone, anyone could even remotely be saved by Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance we must not delay in telling them that they must join the Catholic Church and have baptism by water in order to be saved for that----------------- is what Jesus commanded us to do.
....and so we pray,

George

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:39 am

Flatterus,

In my last post I forwarded a copy of my reply to a blogger that has a website in Rome. We have has numerous exchanges over the last six years.

God Bless you,

George
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More and more

Post  flatterus on Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:02 pm

George, you said:

When you say: " If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma " you are absolutely correct and then you immediately turn around and contradict yourself when you say: " The experiences of the saints confirm the dogmatic teaching.St. Francis Xavier mentions persons who returned back to the earth after being physically dead, only to be baptised with water.So this is the way God has chosen for all to be saved- the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.

Nice try. I never said that it wouldn't be an exception to a dogma. It is. What I was doing is showing that even if it did happen, we don't have to believe it, its not our affair. You insist that I have to believe it. I do not. I must not. There is every reason to disbelieve it because it contradicts the dogma. And that's ALL it does. My believing it saves no one, affects God not, effects dead people not. It only undermines apostolic zeal and makes Catholic lazy. Oh, and smacks Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in the face with complete lack of respect for the teaching. Saints who saw people they knew after life, were not permitted to say what their judgement was. So it would be impossible for Saints to say anyone got to heaven by desire alone. Fables and misquotes will never begin to erode truth, but they do plenty of damage to the people.

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More and more

Post  flatterus on Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:43 pm

By the way, George,

No saint was ever canonized without the Church verifying their sacrament of baptism. If one is a saint, one was baptized. Storybooks are insufficient for their lack of proof of baptism. If the Church canonized them, the Church verified the sacrament of baptism for their candidate.

Add another horrific calumny: that Holy Mother Church canonizes non-Catholics. A truly hateful notion and another of the rotten things one must do to believe in non baptism. Don't even think of saying that the Church makes judgement on a soul. She doesn't. She makes judgement on one's life. That automatically means: no sacrament, no sainthood.


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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  flatterus on Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:45 pm

I answered everything in a letter that I deleted. This discussion is going nowhere.

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, “If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

I have been passionate about this because Pope Paul III is talking to you in the quote above, George. You say and teach that baptism is optional the minute you say desire saves. And people listening to you will carry away the same error. I'll say it one more time: at all times my guns are aimed at the culprit baptism of desire, not any person.

flatterus






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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:57 pm

Flatterus,

You must not have read my addendum that the second post I sent was a post that was not addressed to you.

You are right and with sadness I agree this discussion which has been lengthy is going no where. I pray that you like many who held your position finally came to see their errors or as you would say joined the dark side. Like I said before I think that you are a very devout person who just has this issue wrong. I think the following is my last word but I will never say never. I pray that you will enter Heaven and be with God, Jesus, Holy Ghost, Blessed Mother and all the Angles and Saints forever in eternity. By the way eternity is twice as long as forever.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Catholic Church teaches that a person may be saved by Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance by a sanctity that they must possess as defined by the Church and bestowed upon them by God whose judgement and mercies are not limited or bound. The Church furthermore teaches and takes great comfort that these conditions of sanctity find favor with God. With this in mind, the Church forbids anyone in the Church to teach under any circumstances that we can presume, assume or speculate that someone is saved other than by the command of Jesus that everyone must enter, remain or stay in the Catholic Church and be baptized with water. Those in the Church must not delay to teach this and this alone with great urgency for people are constantly dying.

May God love you and Holy Ghost bombard you with wisdom,
Your Friend,
George
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Less is More

Post  flatterus on Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:47 pm

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

God bless,
flatterus

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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:27 am


Flatterus,

My heart leapt with joy, when I read on this the first Sunday of Lent your last post where you said that there is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church. Why you little rascal, why didn't you just say this on your first entry? You would have saved us all a lot of time and ink. When someone is saved in a state of sanctity through Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire or invincible ignorance as defined by the Church, they are saved INSIDE not outside the Church. You scared the dickens out of me for awhile as I thought that you were claiming that a Catechumen could not be saved. My bad!! You nailed it spot on in proclaiming the eternal truth that there is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church.

God Bless you,

George
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  MRyan on Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:28 pm

Jehanne wrote:Mike,

It is interesting that you did not reply to my question of a few months ago about public adulterers receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
Actually, Jehanne, I did answer you, and made it quite clear that I do not support such heterodoxy. I'm surprised (well, given our history, only somewhat) you could even ask such a strange question.

Jehanne wrote:In any case, a "very, very old" debate here.
That's for sure, glad you've finally seen the light. Flatterme's responses were of the oh-so-typical factually inaccurate and logically deficient kind - and remarkably so. When confronted with an egregious error or lie, he simply shuffles to the next one, repeats the same error, or changes the subject.

I made quick order of it, and am done.
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  Jehanne on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:00 am

MRyan wrote:
Jehanne wrote:Mike,

It is interesting that you did not reply to my question of a few months ago about public adulterers receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
Actually, Jehanne, I did answer you, and made it quite clear that I do not support such heterodoxy. I'm surprised (well, given our history, only somewhat) you could even ask such a strange question.

So, if Francis would allow public adulterers to receive the Blessed Eucharist while continuing in their adulterous unions, what would you do? Start attending a SSPX chapel? CMRI?
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  MRyan on Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:26 am

Jehanne wrote:
MRyan wrote:
Jehanne wrote:Mike,

It is interesting that you did not reply to my question of a few months ago about public adulterers receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
Actually, Jehanne, I did answer you, and made it quite clear that I do not support such heterodoxy. I'm surprised (well, given our history, only somewhat) you could even ask such a strange question.

So, if Francis would allow public adulterers to receive the Blessed Eucharist while continuing in their adulterous unions, what would you do?  Start attending a SSPX chapel?  CMRI?
Funny how I always seem to know where you are going with your leading questions and hypotheticals. You never disappoint.

I think I would follow the recommendation of Cardinal Burke. Pretty smart fellow.
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  Jehanne on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:26 am

MRyan wrote:I think I would follow the recommendation of Cardinal Burke. Pretty smart fellow.

I agree; Cardinal Burke is a holy and praiseworthy churchman. But still, when asked, he has not (as of yet) given any specifics as to what form "the (his) resistance" would take.
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:15 am

Jehanne said:
" I agree; Cardinal Burke is a holy and praiseworthy churchman. But still, when asked, he has not (as of yet) given any specifics as to what form "the (his) resistance" would take."


God help us if this should come to pass. If it should, all practicing Catholics of good will shall receive their instructions, comfort and help from Cardinal Burke along with the other supporting clerics on what to do and how to resist. I pray this will not happen but the rampant modernism has been with us for so long that perhaps before it can be remedied it must run its course.

and so we pray,

George
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  tornpage on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:00 pm

One of the first acts of the new Pontiff was to appoint a number of expert theological revisors to examine every statement in the Catechism from the viewpoint of doctrine. Chief among them were Cardinal Sirlet and the two Dominicans, Thomas Manriquez and Eustachius Locatelli. By July of that year the work on the Catechism was finished”.

If Domincans were involved, you know they kept their feet to the fire. At least in those days.

Am I missing something? Well, yeah . . . but I mean, did things change in terms of the quote button or something. I can’t get that quote in the old box.
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:10 am

Hi Tornpage,

I pray that all is well with you and your loved ones.

In reference to your post:
Meanwhile Pius IV died and was succeeded on January 17, 1566, by Pius V. One of the first acts of the new Pontiff was to appoint a number of expert theological revisers to examine every statement in the Catechism from the viewpoint of doctrine. Chief among these revisers were Cardinal Sirlet and the two Dominicans, Thomas Manriquez and Eustachius Locatelli. By July of that year the work on the Catechism was finished. But it was not until the close of the year that it appeared under the title, Catechismus ex decreto Concilii Tridentini ad Parochos Pii V Pont. Max. jussu editus.

God Bless you,

George
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  tornpage on Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:39 am

Good morning, George.

Thanks. And same to you and yours.
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:09 pm

Jesus commanded the Catholic Church to teach the truth to everyone. It is a far more pleasing to God to teach everyone the truth than to have hope that everyone does not need to hear or know the truth.

Even with all the babel and uncertainties of today, we are commanded by Jesus to teach the faith to ALL with the simplicity of a child.

CCC: 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the OBLIGATION and also THE SACRED OBLIGATION to evangelize ALL men." (.....that they must enter, return or stay in the Catholic Church and be baptized with water.)

If we spent our time teaching the truth, little time would be spent on justifying reasons not to teach it.

The greatest tragedy in this life would be not becoming a Saint in the next.

The second greatest commandment to love one's neighbor as yourself is to tell them the truth. Then and only then can love become a supernatural love.

If we do as Jesus commanded us all the other worries and concerns are handed to God.


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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:09 pm


The Ark of Salvation.......Don't Rock the boat
>
>
> When a soul is bestowed Salvation
> by God through the merits by Baptism of Desire and/or
> Baptism of Blood they are Catholic and in Heaven for all
> eternity .In Baptism of Desire one dies in the faith while
> in Baptism of Blood one is killed for the faith. Baptism of
> Blood describes a martyr who shed their blood and has not been
> known to be baptized with water. The Church
> has proclaimed Saints who were both Catechumens who
> desired the faith and Martyrs who shed their blood for
> Jesus. No one wants to be killed for their faith but
> Martyrs accept this before God when all other possibilities
> are exhausted. A person just needs to read the Life of
> Saint Thomas Moore or watch ' A man for all seasons' to see
> how he exhausted all his attempts to save his life. In the
> end Martyrdom chose him and he accepted. He died as the "
> kings good servant but God's first " Jesus suffered and died
> for us and our sins so that we may live. Jesus suffered
> supernatural martyrdom
> for us. How can we ever grasp his agony, pain and suffering
> accompanied with His supernatural love. Jesus the man did
> not want to die on the cross but Jesus the Saviour of the
> World "fell upon his face,praying,and saying: My Father, if
> it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless
> not as I will, but as thou will"... Matthew
> 26:39
>
> It has been said that God binds his justice with one
> hand and unties His other hand of his mercies. The Church
> describes and teaches of other conditions of sanctity that
> may enable a person to be saved. We should hope and pray
> that souls have been saved by these conditions of sanctity.
> The Church cautions even those who may possess such sanctity
> that they CANNOT be certain of their salvation.
> Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance
> are not options or choices that the Catholic Church can
> offer to any person alive as the formula commanded by
> Jesus that must be taught to ALL.. We can be MOST CERTAIN
> that a Catholic in the state of grace and free from mortal
> sin WILL go to Heaven. No maybes, no hope in what is not
> certain should be taught to anyone. What part of
> Catholic Church teaching in that" the Church still has the
> obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
> does someone in the Catholic Church not understand.
> This is the command of both Jesus and the Church for all
> times to all people. I challenge anyone to name one
> proclaimed Saint in over 2000 years who was saved by
> Invincible Ignorance or a condition other than Baptism of
> Blood or Baptism of Desire?.............crickets!!!!!!
>
> When someone is taught that there is no Salvation Outside
> of the Catholic Church along with Baptism by water, there
> can be no excuse that they do not know. They can claim that
> do not agree or will not obey Jesus command but they now DO
> KNOW the Catholic Church teaches this to be true and
> if they refuse to enter Her they cannot be
> saved. We must explain and teach in love and charity
> but can not leave out the truth of 2000 years by
> ignoring it or watering it down. Most in the Church have
> changed their understanding of the word KNOWING to mean
> agree with.
>
> Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible
> Ignorance as defined by the Church are completely and
> totally irrelevant to teaching the Faith as Jesus commanded
> and yet all save a few have as Pope Pius XII said when he
> proclaimed that we have reduced the necessity of the
> Catholic Church to a meaningless formula. Yes we have!
>
> Dialogue and ecumenical attempts that do not have
> urgency are both sinful and disobedient to Jesus. Presumed
> salvation for those who are not visible practicing Catholic
> is a mortal sin. The idea of gradualism and tip toeing into
> the beauty and truth of our faith at some indefinite future
> point is the work of Satan. Yesterday is spent, Today is the
> present and tomorrow is not promised.. If those in the
> Church realize that the present will be the last day on
> Earth for many there would be more urgency and less concern
> for popularity and the collection basket. We shout from
> the mountain tops that "There is but one universal Church of
> the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."
>
> ...Please pray intensively for Pope Francis to guide us back
> into calmer waters
>
> George Brenner
>
>
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Re: Baptism or baptism of desire. What are the fruits?

Post  George Brenner on Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:15 am


Although other Pope's could be referenced, the following in my most humble opinion says it best of all. This should comfort and remedy those who question God's possible mercies. This clearly instructs Catholics of good will on exactly what to believe and teach concerning our Catholic faith. I repeat once again that we must pray that souls do find Salvation through the Church defined conditions of sanctity by Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance as God so deems worthy. However these conditions are completely and totally irrelevant to what we are commanded to teach and only teach to all in that there is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and one Baptism by water for the forgiveness of sins.

As spoken with wisdom and grace from Heaven:

SINGULARI QUADAM
ALLOCUTION OF POPE PIUS IX
DECEMBER 9, 1854


"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."



and so we pray,

George



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