Latest topics
» Polish traditionalists handicapped : Archbishop Lefebvre made a mistake
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:20 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney in the USA when they interpret Vatican Council II with the irrational premise deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Bishop Robert J.McManus and Brother Thomas Augustine MICM,Superior,St.Benedict Center,Still River,MA, interpret Vatican Council II with the 'possibilites are exceptions' error
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:47 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» SSPX must be aware of the deception of Abp.Guido Pozzo and confront it
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:57 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Two popes must ask all Catholics to affirm Vatican Council II (premise-free) as they do
Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:16 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary Still River Ma., could lose canomical status because of Feeneyism
Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:54 am by Lionel L. Andrades

»  Traditionalists oppose Pope Francis on morals but give him a pass on salvation
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:06 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Someone needs to help Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Archbishop Pozzo and Archbishop Di Noia see how they use a false premise to interpret Vatican Council II
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:53 pm by Lionel L. Andrades

» Robert Siscoe and John of St. Thomas Respond to Fr. Cekada
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:25 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Still no denial from Abp.Guido Pozzo : SSPX must accept Vatican Council II with a false doctrine and the new theology based on an irrational premise Image result for Photo of Archbishop Guido Pozzo
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:03 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Five Catholic academics accept the development of doctrine on salvation and Vatican Council II but reject it on morals and the death penalty
Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:32 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Dr.Robert Fastiggi wants Bishop Donald Sanborn and Chris Ferrara to affirm a magisterium in heresy and schism like him
Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:30 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» ]Christine Niles uses the false premise to interpret magisterial documents
Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:30 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» SSPX has a right to canonical status when they correct their doctrinal error in the 'chart'
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:25 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» No one shows Massimo Faggioli his precise theological and philosophical mistake
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:07 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Rethink "Feeneyism"?
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:02 pm by tornpage

» Brother Andre Marie MICM, the Prior at the St. Benedict Center does not correct Frs.Brian Harrison and Cekada,Bishops Sanborn,Pirvanus,Kelly and Fellay
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:24 pm by MRyan

» Revisiting Diocese/Parish Screening Policy
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:03 pm by MRyan

» When sedes and trads can accept that Pius XII made a mistake then popes since John XXIII are no more in heresy
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:08 pm by MRyan

» Doctrinal talks were conducted with Fr.Gleize on 'the other side'
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:08 am by Lionel L. Andrades


Ronald Knox on baptism of desire

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Ronald Knox on baptism of desire

Post  Guest on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:57 pm

http://jonmsweeney.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/ronald-knox-on-the-baptism-of-desire/

Ronald Knox on (the) baptism (of desire)

I should certainly be very much surprised if I found myself in a heaven which didn’t contain Socrates and Plato and Virgil and plenty of other people who, at first sight, would have no right to be there. How it is that such souls come to be saved we don’t know. Some have thought that at the very moment of death, and perhaps even after the moment at which a doctor would give a certificate of medical death, an illumination is given to them which, if they accept it, will achieve the baptism of desire. Others prefer to think that the desire of baptism can be implicitly contained in an act of love towards God, even an act that is confused, even an act that is inarticulate. We don’t know.

–Ronald Knox, from “The Unconscious Catholic”

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Ronald Knox on baptism of desire

Post  columba on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:10 am

That's interesting Rasha.
Ronald Knox died in 1958 so he was a quite recent theologian. It seems from that quote that he was not aware of baptism of desire being a doctrine of the faith as he was even then still speculating on the possibility.
Hope MRyan reads this.
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: Ronald Knox on baptism of desire

Post  MRyan on Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:39 pm

columba wrote:That's interesting Rasha.
Ronald Knox died in 1958 so he was a quite recent theologian. It seems from that quote that he was not aware of baptism of desire being a doctrine of the faith as he was even then still speculating on the possibility.
Hope MRyan reads this.
And this is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the other thread about your conflating of the established doctrines of baptism of desire/baptism of blood as they apply to someone who possesses the requisite supernatural faith, charity and desire for baptism, with invincible ignorance where the limits to such ignorance cannot be so easily “defined”.

How the "baptism of desire" may be achieved in someone in invincible ignorance would undergo further development (with certain aspects remaining unresolved), especially in light of the teachings of Pope Pius Pius IX, the first Pope to articulate the Church's position on Invincible Ignorance.

Socrates and Plato lived some four centuries before Christ, while Virgil lived around 70 B.C; so the law of baptism was not yet promulgated. As such, Monsignor Knox could only be referring to baptism of desire in an analogical sense to describe the possibility of a translation to justice by “the desire thereof” to know and do the will of God under the Old Dispensation.

The issue for Msgr. Knox is clearly invincible ignorance and the conditions under which an “illumination” of the true God may be realized while remaining ignorant of His Revelation to the Jews.

There is simply no basis for you to suggest that Msgr. Knox was not aware of the doctrine of “baptism of desire” simply because he was speculating on how one might “achieve the baptism of desire” while in invincible ignorance.

And as far his statement that “Others prefer to think that the desire of baptism can be implicitly contained in an act of love towards God, even an act that is confused, even an act that is inarticulate. We don’t know”, Msgr. Knox is not speculating on whether baptism of desire can be implicit in an act of love, but only whether this act of love can be confused and even inarticulate, such as it might have been with Plato, Socrates or Virgil.
avatar
MRyan

Posts : 2276
Reputation : 2448
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Ronald Knox on baptism of desire

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum