St. Thomas Aquinas and the Immaculate Conception

Okay, so what does the CCC mean by "salutary repentance"?

Jehanne,

Okay, so what does the CCC mean by "salutary repentance"?

I just told you.

I'll spell out for you the illegitimacy of your practice with regard to the current Magisterium. The current Magisterium says:

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

You ignore the fact that there are countless manners of suicide where the ones "tak[ing] their own lives" have sufficient time to "repent" of the action that triggers their demise (taking "sleeping pills"; cutting one's wrists in a hot bath; jumping off a bridge, etc. - the latter being a particularly good example, to boot, of your bias and dismissive attitude, as MRyan pointed out in picturing you with your "stop watch"), and you posit a manner where the act and death likely (but hey, that's good enough for you to question the Magisterium) occur instantaneously (the "blow your brains out" scenario), and you then extrapolate from this "likely" fact in probably "all" of this fraction of suicides that the Magisterium is speaking specifically to that (the "blow your brains out") scenario and, therefore and by golly, referring to the possibility of a "salutary repentance" after death.

As I said, and it was not mere flattery, you're intelligent. I'll let you enlighten yourself on the deficiencies of the mode of thought.

You act like the graces of the Holy Spirit only come after a person jumps, slits his/her wrist, etc. How a person could "jump," having refused the graces of the One and Triune God not to do so, and then do "a 180" (no pun intended), repent of his/her sins, and then make an Act of Perfect Contrition (imperfect contrition would not be sufficient), all before his/her physical death, is beyond me. In spite of this, the CCC tells us "not to despair."

I want to make it clear that I am absolutely in favor of universal salvation. However, given the revelations in the First Secret at Fatima, I do not know how one can honestly believe in such a thing.

Dudes I think you're both right. Tornpage is right in that we don't know the personal volition of the suicide victim. What if the person was on drugs and didn't have control of his faculties?

But Jehanne is right that there isn't GOOD hope of the victim's salvation. There may be SOME hope (since we don't know all the personal details of the person) but the spin the CCC puts on it is we can have good hope. There is not much hope for those who commit suicide so we can't despair but to leave this open to unclear language was irresponsible by the editors of the CCC.

Jehanne,

You act like the graces of the Holy Spirit only come after a person jumps, slits his/her wrist, etc.

This shows that the same bias and filter in your brain that distorts the statements of the Magisterium is alike distorting my statements. At least I'm in good company.

How a person could "jump," having refused the graces of the One and Triune God not to do so, and then do "a 180" (no pun intended), repent of his/her sins, and then make an Act of Perfect Contrition (imperfect contrition would not be sufficient), all before his/her physical death, is beyond me.

Indeed, it is beyond you. And me too. And that is precisely the point. It is why we have a Magisterium guided by the voice of truth, the Holy Ghost.

I repeat: you are using yourself and your fallible and biased judgment as the reference, and interpreting the indefectible authority (the Magisterium) by the defectible authority. In plain terms, you have it ass backwards, or the cart before the horse.

Humble yourself. Say, "this grates me, and sets me off," and then take a deep breath and consider the source, the Magisterium of the One, True Church, the interpreter of the ways of the Lord, and give Her the benefit of the doubt, and you will see your objections evaporate as the foul air they are.

Many of the statements of the post-Vatican II Magisterium are like a rorschach test for "traditionalists," SSPXers and Feeneyites alike. Don't see the demon in those statements, and let that demon become the mirror of your soul.

tornpage wrote:Jehanne,

You act like the graces of the Holy Spirit only come after a person jumps, slits his/her wrist, etc.

This shows that the same bias and filter in your brain that distorts the statements of the Magisterium is alike distorting my statements. At least I'm in good company.

How a person could "jump," having refused the graces of the One and Triune God not to do so, and then do "a 180" (no pun intended), repent of his/her sins, and then make an Act of Perfect Contrition (imperfect contrition would not be sufficient), all before his/her physical death, is beyond me.

Indeed, it is beyond you. And me too. And that is precisely the point. It is why we have a Magisterium guided by the voice of truth, the Holy Ghost.

I repeat: you are using yourself and your fallible and biased judgment as the reference, and interpreting the indefectible authority (the Magisterium) by the defectible authority. In plain terms, you have it ass backwards, or the cart before the horse.

Humble yourself. Say, "this grates me, and sets me off," and then take a deep breath and consider the source, the Magisterium of the One, True Church, the interpreter of the ways of the Lord, and give Her the benefit of the doubt, and you will see your objections evaporate as the foul air they are.

Many of the statements of the post-Vatican II Magisterium are like a rorschach test for "traditionalists," SSPXers and Feeneyites alike. Don't see the demon in those statements, and let that demon become the mirror of your soul.

We simply disagree on this point, and there is no need to argue it any further. For me, there are three levels of Magisterial teaching:

1) Supreme Magisterium: That which has been solemnly and infallible proclaimed. The Council of Carthage and Florence are two examples, although, there are many others. Per Vatican I, these declarations are irreformable and unchanging.

2) Ordinary Magisterium: Also infallible, that which has been believed and taught from the beginning.

3) Authentic Magisterium: Teachings that come from the Pope but which, if contradictory to #1 and #2, are erroneous to varying degrees. It is the work of theology to sort this out. It is the responsibility of Bishops, saints, and theologians to point these teachings out to the Pope, and it is his responsibility to make the necessary corrections, clarifications, etc. The faithful are certainly free to follow the "dissenting" bishops in this regard.

Cowboy,

What if the person was on drugs and didn't have control of his faculties?

Good point. It is the "what ifs," and the "how coulds," that we stand befuddled before, that counsel us to withhold our fallible judgments and yield what we don't know to God.

There is not much hope for those who commit suicide so we can't despair but to leave this open to unclear language was irresponsible by the editors of the CCC.

And it is not irresponsible for "cowboys" to pronounce upon the "irresponsibility" of the Magisterium? Listen, I understand the sentiment. I can only give you my input, the input of a good 35 to 40 years of meditating on these things, a good portion of them having been spent accusing the Magisterium of being "irresponsible." Angels should fear to tread there, but I jumped right in. And God pulled me out. I hope you can understand why I devote much of my time here to counseling others against jumping into that hole, or trying to pull them out.

Can the Magisterium, the ordinary and universal teaching authority, be "irresponsible"? Perhaps, but we should tread with great caution there, and that type of "caution" is being thrown to the wind by Jehanne when he interprets the statement of the Magisterium at issue as supporting "salutary repentance" after death. He is seeing something that is not there, and he is being irresponsible in doing so.