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How Do You Respond?

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How Do You Respond?

Post  Roguejim on Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:58 pm

Uber-Calvinist James White poses the question, how can a Catholic say he has true "peace in Christ" not knowing from one moment to the next if he might lapse into mortal sin?
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Re: How Do You Respond?

Post  tornpage on Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:59 pm

Jim,

I don't really understand the question.

It would help in understanding the question if White answered how he has peace in Christ.

In any event, the elect are assured of a happy death, and receive the special grace of final perseverance: they will not die in a state of mortal sin. This is infallibly efficacious, and brings the "peace of Christ."
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Re: How Do You Respond?

Post  DeSelby on Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:31 pm

If we do fall into mortal sin, we of course have recourse to confession and absolution. I always have "the peace of Christ" when I hear the words of absolution.

Perhaps it's just that White's question assumes an aberrant view of free will, a crooked view of Christ and His peace and ignores the struggles against principalities and power that it would require a tremendous amount of backtracking to untangle the filigree lines of White's Calvinist heresy to make answering the loaded question worthwhile.
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Re: How Do You Respond?

Post  Roguejim on Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:55 pm

The question was posed to Fr. Pacwa within the context of a debate on justification. Of course, the Protestant heresy of "imputed righteousness" was clearly on the table. I don't recall if "eternal assurance" was, however. I seem to recall White making the point that a Catholic cannot even know with certainty that he is in a state of grace, and that with the possibility of mortal sin looming over his head, how is true "peace in Christ" even possible. Fr. Pacwa admitted that the Catholic can only have moral certitude that he is in a state of grace.

Tornpage's answer presupposes that he knows with certainty that he is one of the Elect. DeSelby's answer presupposes that he would make it to confession before dying.
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Re: How Do You Respond?

Post  tornpage on Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:22 pm

DeSelby,

I think White's question assumes an aberrant view of Catholic doctrine on this issue since it is not an issue the Church pounds home - and actually largely avoids these days - and, consequently, there's a lot of muddled thinking out there which you hear from Joe Catholic in the pew, and a lot of priests (surprise, surprise), which is what White hears and therefore thinks is the "Catholic" position.

Jimmy Akin had a good article on this called "A Tiptoe Through the Tulip," (http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm), where he had this to say:

First, Catholics are often attacked by Calvinists who misunderstand the Catholic position on these issues. Second, Catholics often misunderstand the teaching of their own Church on predestination. Third, in recent years there has been a large number of Calvinists who have become Catholics [8]. By understanding Calvinism better, Catholics can help more Calvinists make the jump.

I think he nails it down there pretty good.

And I have a quote (given a fuller extract below) in my signature line, from Father Garrigou-Lagrange, which acknowledges:

"Finally, it must be observed that two contradictory propositions cannot be true at the same time or false at the same time; one is true, the other false. On the other hand, Pelagianism and predestinationism are doctrines simultaneously false; they are not contradictory in this, but in other respects. For instance, Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism erroneously maintain that 'God wills equally the salvation of all men, namely, the elect and the reprobate.' The contradictory proposition: 'God does not will equally the salvation of all men,” is true. This indeed is what the predestinationists, Calvinists, and Jansenists declare and in so doing they do not err, but they do err by denying the will of universal salvation, which is affirmed by Augustine when he says: 'God does not demand the impossible.' ”

I think if White read Father GL's book on Predestination he'd be quite surprised, and encounter the mind of an orthodox Catholic that is different from the rash of Molinisits he's used to debating.
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Re: How Do You Respond?

Post  tornpage on Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:23 pm

Tornpage's answer presupposes that he knows with certainty that he is one of the Elect.

No, it doesn't. That's heretical, by the way.

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Re: How Do You Respond?

Post  tornpage on Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:27 pm

Jim,

Do you live in hope? You hope you are one of the elect, yes? Do you say Acts of Hope? I hope so. Smile

The infallible doctrine, coupled with the hope of election, brings peace. Without any presumption on my part.

If I am not among the elect, I will get what I deserve.

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Re: How Do You Respond?

Post  tornpage on Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:33 pm

DeSelby's answer presupposes that he would make it to confession before dying.

And DeSelby's answer likewise assumes the Catholic doctrine of the final perseverance of the elect, and he also, like a good Catholic, lives in hope.
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Re: How Do You Respond?

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