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Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

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Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

So, who will invite this man to the forum?

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2011/05/wilsonvide/
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Sun May 15, 2011 11:33 pm

I might add that the author of the article delves into Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus a bit, i.e., there are those who are saved outside the Church since salvation is actually through the Church...

So, will any of ye great defenders of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus venture over to this other site and post a comment? I hope so.
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Mon May 16, 2011 12:45 am

Catholicism—More to Lose, More to Give

"The irony is that the Catholic Church has much more on the line and yet considers outsiders in a much more gracious way than the Reformed. This is in part because of the great confidence the Catholic Church has in who and what she is. Since the fullness of the Church subsists in the Church in union with the Bishop of Rome, she has nothing to fear from other claimants to the title of “Truest Expression of the Christian Faith.”

And, given that the Catholic Church puts no boundaries on the reach of the grace of God, it is no stretch and no threat for the Church to proclaim that there are those outside the Catholic Church who could be saved, but any and all that are saved will be saved through the Catholic Church.

For the Church to proclaim that some outside her visible bounds may be saved, but that they will be saved by some form of communion with her doesn’t bring up the same inconsistencies that Pastor Wilson faces in holding that salvation is by faith in Christ alone but that there are those who have faith in Christ who cannot be saved.

The Catholic understanding of salvation is, in the end, a relational understanding, not a forensic one. So it does not trouble the Catholic Church to say that the Reformed person who holds to the Westminster Confession with all his heart but knows, loves and serves Jesus Christ will be accepted into eternal life. He is certainly at a serious disadvantage in the pursuit of holiness without all seven sacraments Christ gave the Church for that purpose, but the fundamental question is that of man’s will in relation to His God.

Certainly, invincible ignorance is a precondition for one who holds to heretical doctrines to be saved,..."

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Guest on Mon May 16, 2011 8:15 am

Wow, I think Fr. Mueller's book was exactly written for the author of this article, LOL.

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  tornpage on Mon May 16, 2011 10:41 am

The lines that jumped out to me were these:

So, while maintaining absolute rigidity on the truths handed down from Christ to the Apostles, the Catholic Church is simultaneously untroubled by letting the streams of grace run where they will. There is no one who, in Pastor Wilson’s language, “could not be saved” on the basis of doctrinal opinion. And thanks be to God for that.

Hmmm. So a Muslim or Jew who emphatically denies the divinity of Christ - obviously one could not be ignorant of that Christian truth if one denies it - is capable of being saved despite denying that dogma of the faith, since no "doctrinal opinion" can bar someone from salvation?

I think I'll drop by ask that guy this question.



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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  tornpage on Mon May 16, 2011 11:36 am

Well, I submitted this comment:

"Certainly, invincible ignorance is a precondition for one who holds to heretical doctrines to be saved, but that ignorance is not contingent on the beliefs one holds."

"There is no one who, in Pastor Wilson’s language, “could not be saved” on the basis of doctrinal opinion."

First, give me a quotation from the Magisterium that supports your view that "one who holds to heretical doctrines" can be saved - if I am accurate in reading the first quote as indicating you hold that view.

Second, it's one thing to say "invincible ignorance" wipes out the fault or sin (moral culpability) of lacking something necessary (such as the Catholic faith), but it's another thing to say that it relieves one of the necessity of having that necessary thing. But let us assume that it does. It would seem to me, however - even if you assume that it does - that it's an entirely different matter to posit such ignorance as providing cover for a denial (the assertion of the contrary) of the necessary thing. It's one thing to say, "he would have followed the law had he know about it," and another to say, "he is not responsible for his denial of the law."

This is a problem I have with the concept of "invincible ignorance" being used as a remedy for the lack of what is necessary. It's a viable excuse for the fault of lacking it, but it doesn't provide for what is lacked, and that is highlighted when you use ignorance to cover not only the lack of something (because the need for it is not known) but also the denial of the very thing needed.

Let's take the example of a Muslim who denies the divinity of Christ. He's not ignorant of the dogma, he is aware of it and says "no" to it. Now the "invincibly ignorant" person is one who does all that God has revealed to Him, and acts in accordance with God's revelation - it's just that God hasn't revealed certain truths to him, and it is assumed he would have embraced those truths on the basis of his acceptance of what God has revealed. With the Muslim who says "no" to the divinity of Christ, it's different. He is emphatically denying a truth of God's revelation which he is aware of. How can you then assume this man would believe everything necessary had it been revealed to him when he explicitly denies a truth of revelation that is known to him? The basis for application of implied assent is gone; the truth is before him, and he denies it. Now you can argue x and y as to the culpability of the denial, but you can't argue that the denial is in fact an assent, since the basis for doing so as to the genuinely invincibly ignorant person is that he has assented to the minima of truths that have been revealed, and therefore his assent to the rest of those truths can be implied and assumed. You can't make that assumption with the Muslim who denies: you have a living example (a denial of revealed truth) that destroys the assumption - the bridge to salvation, if you will, has been blown up.

Sorry for the long windedness.

A little rambling, but at least I got something off.


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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Mon May 16, 2011 2:14 pm

Well done, tornpage. I think you might enjoy the exchange there. Apparently, your comments are going through the moderation process now. Keep checking back.
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  columba on Mon May 16, 2011 7:28 pm

Hi folks .
Back from my short absence here. I have though been keeping track and reading all your posts and I think you submitted some excellent points there Tornpage in that comment. Be interesting to see if it makes the board and receives a reply or two.
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Tue May 17, 2011 3:20 am

Not sure what's taking them so long to post tornpage's comments. I've posted comments there in the past with no problems. I would contact Bryan Cross here tornpage if your comments don't get posted, and ask why.

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/contact/
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Guest on Tue May 17, 2011 10:59 am

The comment is still not there. Funny how no other topic will get "moderated" on comment boxes, banned from forums, de-friended on Facebook, and thrown out of parishes than Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Tue May 17, 2011 2:38 pm

I sent a link to that article to Bro. Andre Marie. I just received an email from him stating that he also left a comment. If nothing is posted by Wednesday morning from tornpage and Bro. Andre Marie, I will contact the three forum Editors at that site and ask if it is a "closed" forum. I already know it is not, but I want an explanation. In fairness, it has taken a couple of days for some of my own comments to posted before.
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  tornpage on Wed May 18, 2011 12:55 am

My comments and those of Brother Andre were added. To which a "Fred" commented thus:

Brother Andre,

Since the subject of the post has to do with Protestant views of the eternal fate of Catholics, I’m unclear as to what relevance there is in a web page that seems to have to do with certain folks’ views of the eternal fate of non-Catholics.

For the sake of clarification, do you affirm what Vatican II said?—namely, that “…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” [Unitatis Redintegratio 3]

Thanks in advance for helping to clear up the uncertainty.

To which I have submitted the following comment:

Fred,

While your response was addressed to Brother Andre, I was, as it were, an unindicted co-conspirator (one of the "certain folks" whose comments made you feel "unclear"), and as such I'll offer my comment.

The last section of the article made various statements about the Catholic Church's view of salvation, and my comments, and Brother Andre's, addressed some of the statements made therein or the issues raised. I hardly think our comments were gratuitous and not on point.

The quote from Vat II is ambiguous and unclear to the extent you want to read it as having any doctrinal content whatever. Martin Luther was "justified by faith in Baptism," as was Friedrich Nietzsche and Joseph Stalin (I could be even more trenchantly illustrative had I time), and to that extent they as well come within the parameters of the Vat II quote as being among "all" who have been baptized - and, therefore, since they meet the "definition," may be called "Christian" and regarded and "correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." Indeed, most who come within the abundant anathemas proclaimed by the Church over time (I'm thinking primarily of Trent at the moment) would meet the definition.

Might I ask, now that we have seen the range of the group brought within the scope of the Vatican II quote, what help or relevance the quote brings to bear on the question of the salvation of anyone?
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Guest on Wed May 18, 2011 1:11 am

Wow....nice work guys!!!

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Wed May 18, 2011 2:33 am

tornpage wrote:My comments and those of Brother Andre were added. To which a "Fred" commented thus:

Brother Andre,

Since the subject of the post has to do with Protestant views of the eternal fate of Catholics, I’m unclear as to what relevance there is in a web page that seems to have to do with certain folks’ views of the eternal fate of non-Catholics.

For the sake of clarification, do you affirm what Vatican II said?—namely, that “…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” [Unitatis Redintegratio 3]

Thanks in advance for helping to clear up the uncertainty.

To which I have submitted the following comment:

Fred,

While your response was addressed to Brother Andre, I was, as it were, an unindicted co-conspirator (one of the "certain folks" whose comments made you feel "unclear"), and as such I'll offer my comment.

The last section of the article made various statements about the Catholic Church's view of salvation, and my comments, and Brother Andre's, addressed some of the statements made therein or the issues raised. I hardly think our comments were gratuitous and not on point.

The quote from Vat II is ambiguous and unclear to the extent you want to read it as having any doctrinal content whatever. Martin Luther was "justified by faith in Baptism," as was Friedrich Nietzsche and Joseph Stalin (I could be even more trenchantly illustrative had I time), and to that extent they as well come within the parameters of the Vat II quote as being among "all" who have been baptized - and, therefore, since they meet the "definition," may be called "Christian" and regarded and "correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." Indeed, most who come within the abundant anathemas proclaimed by the Church over time (I'm thinking primarily of Trent at the moment) would meet the definition.

Might I ask, now that we have seen the range of the group brought within the scope of the Vatican II quote, what help or relevance the quote brings to bear on the question of the salvation of anyone?

Good argument, and presentation. Nothing like an inter-forum dialog to spice things up, I say. I hope it goes on a bit. By the way, if you click on "Fred's" name, you will find he has his own blog.
http://aquinasetc.wordpress.com/
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  tornpage on Thu May 19, 2011 12:20 am

Looks like my last comment didn't make the cut. Three comments submitted after mine were posted, including one by Brother Andre. Hey, at least they took his.

Jim, I'm of no mind to argue why my comment didn't get posted. Whatever their reasons are, I don't really care.

It's all your fault (collectively): you shouldn't let me out in public. No
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Thu May 19, 2011 4:07 am

Your comment still might show up. I don't understand their system for moderating, but this very thing has happened to me before.

What do you think of the bolded words here by Bryan Cross:

"Chris D.,

A separated brother is objectively in a state of schism from the Church, even while possessing an imperfect communion with her through baptism. The good of that [imperfect] communion and of the elements of sanctification possessed by the Protestant, do not nullify the divine imperative of leaving any schism, and being reconciled to the Church in full communion. That is precisely why those who know that the Catholic Church was founded by God through Christ as necessary for salvation, but refuse to enter her or remain in her, cannot be saved. (CCC 846) In other word, schism (i.e. whether remaining in a schism or forming a schism) is objectively a grave sin, and those who, with full knowledge and complete consent, commit this sin, are in a state of mortal sin, without the life of God and without salvation.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan"

Those words reminded me of a mega-thread I started at Angelqueen way back. Not sure if Mryan was still a participating member then or not.

http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21475&highlight=catholic+church
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  tornpage on Thu May 19, 2011 11:57 pm

Jim,

Yes, that "those who know" qualifier drives me nuts, too. That's a good topic worth addressing. But I'm a little tied up with "Fred" at the moment - they finally posted my quote, much later than subsequent quotes were approved and posted. I do not understand that, at all.

Anyway, Fred responded to me:


Mark (#31),

Might I ask, now that we have seen the range of the group brought within the scope of the Vatican II quote, what help or relevance the quote brings to bear on the question of the salvation of anyone?

The reductio ad absurdum that you propose (suggesting that Luther and Stalin would be included in the scope of those referred to by UR) does not apply: Luther was a formal heretic born in the Catholic Church, and Stalin was an apostate.

But UR explicitly says:

The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation

[emphasis added]

If this is true (and it is), then they cannot be assumed to be guilty of the sins of schism or apostasy nor even formal heresy. So the comparison of them to Luther or Stalin suggested by your reductio is inapt.

My point is that those who are born into Protestant churches today cannot ipso facto be presumed to be guilty of the same mortal sin that the Reformers of the 16th century were, and that the presumption must be granted that they are our brothers in Christ notwithstanding the fact that they are separated, just as UR says. So: to answer your question, the relevance of the quote is that we may not rightly presume that those who have been baptized but aren’t Catholic are not going to be saved just because they are not Catholic. I was uncertain whether Brother Andre agreed, which is why I asked the question.

I've submitted this response:

Fred,

If my proposition was a reductio ad absurdum its absurdity was bred in the fog of your Vatican II quote. It’s the same thing as if you had quoted a Vat II quote asserting that “cardinals are red things” and then accused me of a reduction ad absurdum for saying this means fire engines are cardinals. The fault, dear Fred, is not in my reasoning, and the absurdity is not in my deduction.

Of course, cardinals are red things, but they are more than that, and redness doesn’t define their essence. All the saved may indeed be brothers in Christ, but not all brothers in Christ are saved if you (as Vat II did) define brothers in Christ as the baptized. As you rightly point out, some of the baptized apostasize or become heretics. The fact that someone who reaches maturity has been baptized tells me nothing about their eternal fate – and of course that was my point.

The Vat II quote that those born into Protestant churches “cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation” also does not tell us much about the salvation of the same. Those who are saved “cannot be accused of the sin of separation,” but not all who cannot be accused of the sin of separation are saved. Again we have a sweet nothing being whispered under the moonlight that cannot withstand the scrutiny of morning.

In no way do I agree with you that one who “cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation” cannot be accused of the sin of heresy. Actually, you say one cannot “assume” such – which I don’t, and I don’t understand your talk here of assumption. Anyway, of course they could not separate from what they were never joined to; however, that does not indicate that they cannot be responsible for denying a Catholic dogma that they may be aware of (i.e, be guilty of formal heresy). This simply doesn’t follow.

You say that the relevance of the quote for you was to indicate “that we may not rightly presume that those who have been baptized but aren’t Catholic are not going to be saved just because they are not Catholic.” My criticism of the first and the second Vat II quote is precisely to challenge the flip side that lies in the shadow of your presumption: saying that someone is “a brother in Christ” by baptism and that they are not guilty of the sin of separation is not saying that they are saved merely by baptism and the lack of the sin of schism, and therefore (of necessity) cannot support the assertion that one does not have to be Catholic to be saved.

There have been too many centuries of infallible pronouncements about there being no salvation outside the Catholic Church, etc., for me to accept statements that do not say (or necessitate by inference) the contrary as indicating the contrary. And the logical absurdity of joining those to the Catholic Church who hold opinions that deny one or more of the dogmas of the Catholic Church (in the face of too many centuries of abundant anathemas and statements of the necessity of holding the Catholic faith and not departing from it on a single point) prevents me from adopting unnecessary extrapolations to that effect from ambiguous Vat II and post-Vat II statements.

This discussion highlights for me the problems with the ambiguities in Vatican II, and the presumptions that spring from it. You are turning nice, sweet nothings ecumenically whispered into Protestant ears into marriage vows with the Bride of Salvation.

I was reading some of your thread at AQ - got into page two so far. I'm enjoying the discussion. Great to see those Nadie quotes. Very Happy
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Fri May 20, 2011 2:34 am

I'm glad you're sticking with the discussion at the other forum. It's nice to haggle with a different crowd once in awhile, isn't it? As for the order in which replies are posted there, forget about it. It's a mystery.
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Fri May 20, 2011 5:24 am

From CA's Jimmy Akin on "invincible ignorance":

" Failure to embrace the Christian faith (infidelity), total repudiation of the Christian faith (apostasy), and the post-baptismal obstinate denial or willful doubt of particular teachings of the Catholic faith (heresy) are objectively grave sins against the virtue of faith. Like any other grave sins, if they are committed with adequate knowledge and deliberate consent, they become mortal sins and will deprive one of salvation.

Also like any other grave sins, their imputability can be removed, diminished, unaffected, or increased by the varying types of ignorance. Invincible ignorance removes culpability for the sins against faith, merely vincible ignorance diminishes culpability (sometimes to the point of being venial), crass or supine ignorance will affect culpability for them little or not at all, and hard hearted, affected ignorance will increase culpability for them.

For those who have had their culpability for sins against faith removed or diminished to the point of veniality, they are not moral sins and thus will not of themselves deprive one of heaven. A person who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and his Church through no fault of his own (or, by extension, through his merely venial fault) can be saved-if he otherwise does what is required for salvation, according to the level of opportunity, enlightenment, and grace God gives him (CCC 847, 1260).

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  pascendi on Sat May 21, 2011 2:11 am

I was browsing this against my better judgement, and my first thought was to blurt out "my goodness, you people need to get a life!". Then I thought, nah (non-infallible "nah"), "...for the sake of prudence I should hold that thought". So I did.

...oh shoot. I actually DID say it.

Just out of curiosity: do any of you wonder if this is really doing anyone any good? Myself, over time, I've come to the opinion that theological jousting, while it certainly has its place, resides in the lower realms of the spiritual existence, not as an elevated and advanced state which so many jousters deem it to be. I call it "competition theology".

Since everyone wants spice, I'd thought I'd throw this into the mix and spice it up a bit. It has been so refreshing to have taken a break from all the people who think they know everything.

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Sat May 21, 2011 3:08 am

pascendi wrote:I was browsing this against my better judgement, and my first thought was to blurt out "my goodness, you people need to get a life!". Then I thought, nah (non-infallible "nah"), "...for the sake of prudence I should hold that thought". So I did.

...oh shoot. I actually DID say it.

Just out of curiosity: do any of you wonder if this is really doing anyone any good? Myself, over time, I've come to the opinion that theological jousting, while it certainly has its place, resides in the lower realms of the spiritual existence, not as an elevated and advanced state which so many jousters deem it to be. I call it "competition theology".

Since everyone wants spice, I'd thought I'd throw this into the mix and spice it up a bit. It has been so refreshing to have taken a break from all the people who think they know everything.

Okay, I'll bite.

Whether or not discussions of this nature are "doing anyone any good", who knows...who cares. They've no doubt given you cause to imbibe mass quantities of cheap cerveza, so that could be seen as "good", huh? Couldn't be any worse than habitual Facebooking anyway. As for theological jousting and spiritual existence, what spiritual mansion have you risen to during your hiatus?
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  pascendi on Sat May 21, 2011 3:49 am

I've risen, Jim, further than the numbered Masions of St. John of Cross, and have discovered an entirely unknown wing of the Mansion, mansions within mansions, containing spiritual rooms yet unheard of. No spiritual man has walked the hallways I have walked. Great freedom lies beyond the dark underworld of theological gaming wherein one in darkness seeks only to have pwn'd another!

I love sarcasm. I so wish it wasn't a sin. Good to talk to you again!


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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Guest on Sat May 21, 2011 9:57 am

Pascendi:

The spiritual works of mercy are:

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;

To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.

Debating Protestants and fighting for Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus can fall into the above categories.

Plus I know for myself that my own conversion was helped along by reading Catholic Answers website as well as reading the text of debate between a Protestant minister and Vin Lewis back in 1999. While the debating hardly ever convinces the other side to embrace Catholicism, there are many onlookers whom it benefits. Not only that when we venture out into debates we find objections we have never heard before and that forces us to study the faith more in depth. And finally, there is no salvation outside the Church so all these people are going to hell unless they become Catholic. We need to warn them.

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Guest on Sat May 21, 2011 10:02 am

This stuff is not a game it is life and death:


The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Sat May 21, 2011 1:37 pm

Out of curiosity Rasha, where exactly is this war being waged for you? Are you taking it to the streets, so to speak? Other forums? I always hear about "defending the Dogma". Since I don't see much of an attack here, is there some place else you are finding need to defend it?
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Sat May 21, 2011 1:42 pm

pascendi wrote:I've risen, Jim, further than the numbered Masions of St. John of Cross, and have discovered an entirely unknown wing of the Mansion, mansions within mansions, containing spiritual rooms yet unheard of. No spiritual man has walked the hallways I have walked. Great freedom lies beyond the dark underworld of theological gaming wherein one in darkness seeks only to have pwn'd another!

I love sarcasm. I so wish it wasn't a sin. Good to talk to you again!


Hmm...I thought the numbered mansions were from St. Teresa de Avila. Do they grow peyote in your particular region? I understand from Don Juan that various mansions can be reached via this ingested button. Perhaps you have experience?
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Roguejim on Sun May 22, 2011 12:32 am

bumpus
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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  Guest on Sun May 22, 2011 12:57 am

delete

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

Post  pascendi on Sun May 22, 2011 3:13 am

It seems to me that those first three of the mercy works in red highlighted above, Rasha, generally present themselves to people in the course of fulfilling their calling and daily duty rather than, say, by people actively seeking out occasions to offer them. To put it another way, the work comes to us when God wants to arrange it so.

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Re: Eternal Fate of Faithful Catholics...Doug Wilson

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