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The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:24 pm

"The reason I'm not a sede is more to do with the big yellow streak going down my back and nothing at all to do with being a fan of the NO Church.
And may I add. the postings of many here also restrain me."

I don't being a coward is what is keeping you back...

Maybe I am wrong, and someone correct me if I am wrong, but the salvation of your soul does hang on your decision, at least according to pre-Vatican II Church teaching. However, if you go along with the Vatican II documents, everyone is saved so you would be safe!! Laughing

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Sorry for the double post...computer is sluggish today. Sleep

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:46 pm

the salvation of your soul does hang on your decision

I don't think so.

I think both sedes in good faith, like John Lane and others, and neocons who swear by the V2 popes, could be saved if they are wrong as to the factual question of whether the pope is truly the pope. If you cite any Catholic dogma to either, they will affirm their belief in it.

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:49 pm

tornpage wrote:
the salvation of your soul does hang on your decision

I don't think so.

I think both sedes in good faith, like John Lane and others, and neocons who swear by the V2 popes, could be saved if they are wrong as to the factual question of whether the pope is truly the pope. If you cite any Catholic dogma to either, they will affirm their belief in it.

Nothing would make me happier if you can back up what you have written.

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:50 pm

But then again I think the Jansenists had the better argument when they said they agreed with the pope that the five propositions were heretical (the matter of faith), but disagreed with his judgment that Jansen held to those opinions (the matter of fact).

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:52 pm

Lourdes,

Did you say you want me actually to back it up?

That sounds like a foul. Umpire?

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:56 pm

tornpage wrote:Lourdes,

Did you say you want me actually to back it up?

That sounds like a foul. Umpire?

I meant no harm in my post. What I mean is can you back up what you have written with doctrinal texts? That if I am in doubt about the popes being the popes and not convinced fully that they aren't, and I walk away from the Church to go to a sede chapel, that I won't lose my soul.

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:28 pm

Lourdes,

I know you meant no harm. I was joking.

I'll see if I can at least find someone else's supported argument on that score.

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:00 pm

tornpage wrote:Lourdes,

I know you meant no harm. I was joking.

I'll see if I can at least find someone else's supported argument on that score.

Oh! Ha! Ha! Embarassed


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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  columba on Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:24 pm

Lourdes wrote:
I meant no harm in my post. What I mean is can you back up what you have written with doctrinal texts? That if I am in doubt about the popes being the popes and not convinced fully that they aren't, and I walk away from the Church to go to a sede chapel, that I won't lose my soul.

If one were to still refer to it as "The Church" while walking away from it then, "Houston, we have a problem."
One would necessarily be walking away because they believe it is NOT the Church.

The term "Sedevacantist" as John S. Daly would explain it, is not a movement within the Church or a kind of new Church; the word merely distinguishes those who believe that the Current occupier of the Papal Chair is not a true Pope from those who believe that he is. The latter could be named "Sede-occupantists.

I have my leanings towards the former in light of the increasingly bad fruits produced by the conciliar Church under the watch of the conciliar Popes who sometimes seem to be deliberately promoting the collapse of Catholic Faith.
I am not here making a judgement but merely reporting (for instance) as a witness would in a court of law. But I still run shy of being the judge.




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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:30 pm

columba wrote:
Lourdes wrote:
I meant no harm in my post. What I mean is can you back up what you have written with doctrinal texts? That if I am in doubt about the popes being the popes and not convinced fully that they aren't, and I walk away from the Church to go to a sede chapel, that I won't lose my soul.

If one were to still refer to it as "The Church" while walking away from it then, "Houston, we have a problem."
One would necessarily be walking away because they believe it is NOT the Church.




You are absolutely right. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

I could never reach the point (with the grace of God) that a lot of sedevacantists have reached - card carrying memebers. How can anyone be morally certain that the popes are not popes and that the Church is no longer the Church? How could anyone know for sure that the VII pontiffs had a malicious intent to destroy the Church and supplant the Faith with one of their own making?[b]

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:50 pm

You people sure do seem to lose interest fast! Maybe if we tossed a little baptism of desire/baptism of blood and Fr. Feeney into it, it would revive? pirat

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:02 pm

Lourdes,

Sorry. I was not aware of their being a hanging thread (pun intended) here.

How can anyone be morally certain that the popes are not popes and that the Church is no longer the Church? How could anyone know for sure that the VII pontiffs had a malicious intent to destroy the Church and supplant the Faith with one of their own making?

There are two good ways to approach this. The first is prayer and petition. Our Lord is as good as His word: all who seek find. Seek through prayer and petition, and I would say go to Our Lady, crusher of heresies.

The second, I think, is places like this, and discussions with others in the real world. It is easier to find access to helps here (the internet).

It is nice to find someone whom you can trust who is intelligent and knowleable to boot. We have someone here that meets that bill in MRyan. This is why I have engaged him on explicit faith - because of my doubts, and the need for sifting on these huge questions. And perhaps our discussion could help others with questions.

Too bad the Bellarmine forum went under. I could say the same thing about "sedes" John Lane and James Larrabee (a profound but infrequent contributor) as I say about MRyan here. Have you ever checked out the Bellarmine forum. Here's links to two good discussions with James Larrabee:

http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5&start=45

http://sedevacantist.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305

While I said I believe that a good faith sede and neocon - with most of the ranges in between, I guess - could be saved despite their contrary positions since they both have the Catholic faith (faith) and love of God (charity), I did not mean to slight the profundity of the issue, and its importance.

It's just that the glass is very dark, and one could reasonably differ as to what things look like during this "crisis."

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:14 pm

It is nice to find someone whom you can trust who is intelligent and knowleable to boot. We have someone here that meets that bill is MRyan. This is why I have engaged him on explicit faith - because of my doubts, and the need for sifting on these huge questions.

Where is he then??? Why doesn't he come here and help untangle my knotty brain??? Shocked

Yes, I am very aware of John Lane's defunct forum. Truthfully, what I sensed there, was, at times, a slippery evasion of the issues and obvious problems with the sedevacantist theory. Teresa Ginardi (not sure of the spelling) asked some very good and vital questions, and I often wonder whatever became of her. Also, the people that posted there were way superior to me in intelligence and often what they wrote went right over my head. I would not have fit in there very well. Crying or Very sad

To show you how slow I am, I just caught your pun..."hanging thread".....ha! ha!

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:12 pm

This is a good article: http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1348309?eng=y


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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  columba on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:11 pm

Lourdes, I'm always looking for confirmations that the Pope can teach error (or even councils can do so) and still remain legitimate and not be something other than the True Church. You see I do believe that the pope/popes have taught error and that V2 Council has taught error and that this can happen while the Church is still the true Church. It's all to do with the boundaries of infallibility imposed on papal and council teachings by the Church herself.

The problems is; A council can be declared in error by the reigning pope and penalties can be applied by the pope if the error isn't recanted, but, when a pope is in error, it falls on the pope himself to declare himself so and issue the appropriate penalty against himself as there is no higher authority capable of doing so.

It can certainly be proven (as history has shown) that a pope (while still reigning) be in error. The jury so to speak (Cardinals, bishops, priests or laity) can find him guilty as charged but the judge (the pope) has the undesirable duty of issuing the appropriate sentence against himself.

If this be so, and I'm not saying definitively that it is so (as the judicial processes in the Church don't necessarily have to be in accord with those processes found in secular society), then does the pope ipso facto resign his leadership of the Church if he refuses to carry out this (undesirable) duty imposed by his office of passing sentence on himself?

There are some very interesting books and articles by The Abbé de Nantes dealing with such questions. The following extract deals with the question of, "Can a pope be in schism?"
The link to the full article which is worth reading can be found here.
http://www.crc-internet.org/june73.htm#question

(2) CAN A POPE BE IN SCHISM?

A schismatic is by definition a Christian separated from Rome and rejecting the sovereign authority of the Pope, so it would at first sight seem to be impossible. Yet the possibility – in theory at least – of a Pope being in schism is admitted by theologians on similar grounds as apply to heresy, with certain additional ones belonging to the realm of psychology, of affective orientations. A Pope can, like ordinary people, be torn between his duty on the one hand and personal ambition, or the service of some other power – or ideology – on the other. The possibility of his failing in his duty for such a reason was envisaged both by Suarez and Bellarmine; their discussion has indeed a very up-to-date ring about it. Today, with the benefit of direct clinical observation, we can distinguish three grades of papal schism:

AFFECTIVE SCHISM (manifested in feelings and attitudes). Such would be the case of a Pope turning against his own flock, even perhaps excommunicating the lot, or the most loyal among them, for no lawful reason, and acting generally like an unnatural father who disinherits his own children, showing affection and friendship only towards strangers.

EFFECTIVE SCHISM. Such would be the case of a Pope manifesting unconcern for, even disgust with, the traditional rites and institutions of the Church. If a Pope were to discard the heritage of the ages and replace it with a whole lot of novelties – a new liturgy, new canon law, new pastoral methods and new dogmatic formulations – he would be in a state of schism against the Papacy of ages past, and hence against the Church of the Apostles.

ABSOLUTE SCHISM. There remains the third stage, which we have termed "absolute schism", when the Pope abandons altogether his sacred function – the service of the Church and care of his flock, and concern with men’s supernatural welfare generally – and devotes himself instead entirely to other matters, such as the enrichment of his family or his City, or to making diplomatic contacts and increasing his popularity with Heads of State. Or he could take up another religion, or devote himself to a utopian, all-embracing religion of the future, seeking even to turn the Church into one of its constituent units. One could then speak of a rupture between the Pope and his people, between the Vicar of Christ and the Lord Himself.

There have been a few such cases in the past, but, like those of heresy, they must be classed as relatively minor deviations which serve, however, to forewarn the Church of what might come – of what has come to pass in our own day, the beginning of the Great Apostasy foretold by the Scriptures?


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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:51 pm

Columba, from my extensive research in this matter, it is my understanding that a pope such as you ask about would immediately lose his office and that it only be left up to the Church to declare what had already taken place. My memory is hazy, but I think that this is what St. Robert Bellarmine said.

I haven't read much of the Abbe de Nantes' writings since I never cared for either him nor his "Phalange" or whatever it is they call themselves. I used to get their periodical in the nineties and could never make heads or tails out of it. I found them strange.

Here is a question for you: where are the four marks of the Church? Are they still in the Church and just so buried that they are no longer obvious? I do not see any unity of faith. Do you?


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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  columba on Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:02 pm

Lourdes wrote:
Columba, from my extensive research in this matter, it is my understanding that a pope such as you ask about would immediately lose his office and that it only be left up to the Church to declare what had already taken place. My memory is hazy, but I think that this is what St. Robert Bellarmine said.

I agree with this Loudes. A pope when becoming a heretic does lose his office as does any other heretic. The thing is, how does a layman decide that the pope is a heretic except through his/her own personal judgement? There are greater minds than mine who say that he is not a heretic and that all his perceived heresies can be understood in an orthodox way.

I'm not convinced by their arguments but at the same time I can't be convinced by my own arguments either, even though there be so many of the popes teachings that I cannot (in my own mind) reconcile with traditional Church teaching.
The other troubling factor is that of him being a heretic before being elected pope which would mean his election was invalid. There are as many (if not more) perceived heresies in his pre-papal writings than those of his pontificat.

I haven't read much of the Abbe de Nantes' writings since I never cared for either him nor his "Phalange" or whatever it is they call themselves. I used to get their periodical in the nineties and could never make heads or tails out of it. I found them strange.

I also had read some of their material many years ago and like you I couldn't make heads or tails of it but with all that has transpired since, I can understand it much better now and find at least some logic in what he -Abbe de Nantes- says.

Here is a question for you: where are the four marks of the Church? Are they still in the Church and just so buried that they are no longer obvious? I do not see any unity of faith. Do you?

In answer I say that I cannot find any of the four marks in the post-conciliar Church. I don't see it as ONE, with so many divisions and ambiguities in belief.
I don't see it as HOLY, with it's failure to provide to the faithful the untarnished means of holiness via the sacraments and most alarmingly through the Mass which now has become the very means by which the loss of faith of many has occurred.
I don't see it as CATHOLIC with its now many different paths to salvation.
I don't see it as APOSTOLIC, with its focus on novelty and ecumenism to the detriment of tradition and loyalty to the perennial teachings derived from the Deposit of Faith.

These Four Marks are either buried beneath the rubble of the above, or, they are not to be found in the conciliar Church at all but elsewhere where the True Church may yet exist undefiled.

As St Thomas said, "A doubtful sacrament is no sacrament at all." so I often wonder is a doubtful Church no Church at all, being that the Church herself is the sacrament of the faithful? And what level of personal conviction can one accept regarding these questions in order to make their own judgement, especially when no one of Divine authority will stand up and address the concerns of millions of the faithful?

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:08 pm

him being a heretic before being elected pope which would mean his election was invalid.

Yes, that would be where I come down on this. JPII didn't start believing, for example, that Jews and Muslims could be saved practicing in their religious traditions and "without recognizing Christ" only after he was elevated. Ditto with BXVI.

The faith of a valid pope would never fail (MRyan, by way of St. Robert Bellarmine). Very Happy

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:04 pm

I'm not convinced by their arguments but at the same time I can't be convinced by my own arguments either, even though there be so many of the popes teachings that I cannot (in my own mind) reconcile with traditional Church teaching.
The other troubling factor is that of him being a heretic before being elected pope which would mean his election was invalid. There are as many (if not more) perceived heresies in his pre-papal writings than those of his pontificat.

I agree. I cannot reconcile it myself. I have read rationalizations of it by a few good priests, but I always think to myself: isn't it odd that a Catholic should have to go to such great lengths to make what a pope said, did or wrote Catholic?

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:09 pm

In answer I say that I cannot find any of the four marks in the post-conciliar Church. I don't see it as ONE, with so many divisions and ambiguities in belief.
I don't see it as HOLY, with it's failure to provide to the faithful the untarnished means of holiness via the sacraments and most alarmingly through the Mass which now has become the very means by which the loss of faith of many has occurred.
I don't see it as CATHOLIC with its now many different paths to salvation.
I don't see it as APOSTOLIC, with its focus on novelty and ecumenism to the detriment of tradition and loyalty to the perennial teachings derived from the Deposit of Faith.

These Four Marks are either buried beneath the rubble of the above, or, they are not to be found in the conciliar Church at all but elsewhere where the True Church may yet exist undefiled.

As St Thomas said, "A doubtful sacrament is no sacrament at all." so I often wonder is a doubtful Church no Church at all, being that the Church herself is the sacrament of the faithful? And what level of personal conviction can one accept regarding these questions in order to make their own judgement, especially when no one of Divine authority will stand up and address the concerns of millions of the faithful?

Once again, all I can say is that I agree, and that I do not have any answers either. Some days I feel like I am losing my mind. That the majority of Catholics do not think this way doesn't help me either. I keep thinking that I have somehow missed the boat. Some times I wonder if I have lost my Faith all together.

It is a cross of monumental proportions for me to bear. Trust me.






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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  Lourdes on Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:11 pm

tornpage wrote:
him being a heretic before being elected pope which would mean his election was invalid.

Yes, that would be where I come down on this. JPII didn't start believing, for example, that Jews and Muslims could be saved practicing in their religious traditions and "without recognizing Christ" only after he was elevated. Ditto with BXVI.

The faith of a valid pope would never fail (MRyan, by way of St. Robert Bellarmine). Very Happy


Woe is me.... Crying or Very sad

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:52 pm

Lourdes,

Now, now . . . I's just speculatin'.

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Re: The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Teaching Error

Post  tornpage on Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:58 pm

[message deleted]

Wrong forum.

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