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Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

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Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

Post  columba on Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:18 pm

This is an interesting article by a certain Dan O'Connell.
He makes the point that Sedevacantists and Novus Ordo Conservatives both believe the same thing concerning the Papacy. That is, "The Pope can do no wrong."
As the pope can do no wrong then the sede's must determine that if he does do wrong then he can't be the pope. The N.C's reason, as the pope can do no wrong then we must follow every word he says and imitate everything he does.

The truth is, both these positions are based on a false or ignorant view of the office of the Papacy.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f025ht_Sedevacantim.htm
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Re: Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:29 pm

The whole debate hinges around two questions: when does a Catholic definitively become a non-Catholic and who is allowed to judge the Pope of Rome.

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Re: Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:10 pm

columba wrote:This is an interesting article by a certain Dan O'Connell.
He makes the point that Sedevacantists and Novus Ordo Conservatives both believe the same thing concerning the Papacy. That is, "The Pope can do no wrong."
As the pope can do no wrong then the sede's must determine that if he does do wrong then he can't be the pope. The N.C's reason, as the pope can do no wrong then we must follow every word he says and imitate everything he does.

The truth is, both these positions are based on a false or ignorant view of the office of the Papacy.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f025ht_Sedevacantim.htm

Very good article and brings up some points I've been discussing with a friend for awhile.
I know they were not asserting the Arron was the "pope" of old but the point was clear, that there was an ultimate authority. Also I think they missed a significant point in the Gospels when Our Lord says:

Mt 23:2
“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. "

So I would speculate that Moses was the "pope".

Another point to add is if EVERYTHING the pope said was orthodox then there would be no reason for Vat I saying that he is only infallible in certain cases--ex cathedra. He can error but the error can not infect the official dogmatic teaching.

Finally I speculate that the "teaching" the pope can't be a heretic was a way to explain infallibility. In the 1600's it was known that "Peter has Spoken" as the last authority but how to explain it was the rub. I still need to research this but I surmise it.

There was a "heretic" pope elected I don't have the reference anymore. It was in a book by Dr. Warren Carol "History of Christendom" first book, I think. An Arian emperess arranged for some bishop to be pope and preach Arianism and to canonize Socrates, and Plato. He agreed before hand to this but when elected pope refused and said now I speak with peter or something like that. I think he may have been martyred. Anyone have this reference?

BTW: Excellent book "History of Christendom" although at one point it struck me, he (Carrol) says how great it was that some Arian heretic was preaching to pagans. Weird. On the whole avery good book series, he is a very good writer. He worked for CIA so I think he is still tainted by traces of neoconism/right wing liberalism.

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Re: Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

Post  Catholic_Truth on Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:39 am

columba wrote:This is an interesting article by a certain Dan O'Connell.
He makes the point that Sedevacantists and Novus Ordo Conservatives both believe the same thing concerning the Papacy. That is, "The Pope can do no wrong."
As the pope can do no wrong then the sede's must determine that if he does do wrong then he can't be the pope.

Actually that is not what Sedes believe. Sedes do recognize that a Pope can sin. But there is a difference between regular sin and sin which separates a person from the Church. Sin that separates a person from the Church is the sin of heresy. So if any "catholic" publicly rejects even just one dogmatic teaching of the Church, then that is heresy and the individual ex-communicates themselves from the Church ipso facto(automatically).
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Re: Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

Post  HolyRussia on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:33 am

As Catholic Truth makes abundantly apparent, you need to define "wrong" for this accusation leveled against sedevacantists to have any substance whatsoever.

Does anyone here really find no difference between sedes and neocons as to what they believe regarding the papacy? It seems to me that there is a big, meaningful and significant difference, and one that makes the linkage between the two groups absurd. Sedes believe someone who is publicly and materially wrong about the faith cannot be pope; Neocons believe someone who is pope cannot be wrong. The inversion is significant.

Thus, Sedes: wrong cannot be pope. Neocons: pope cannot be wrong.
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Re: Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

Post  MRyan on Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:41 pm

Interesting it may be, but not impressive in the least.

I read it once before, and find it every bit as offensive now as I did then. The extreme positions the author attempts to characterize are gross exaggerations. Also, coming from the TIA, it is blatantly hypocritical.

Now on one level the sede-vacantist position is the reciprocal of most of the world's modernist Bishops who believe Benedict XVI is the Pope, but they don't believe in all the rights and authority of the Papacy. A ruse they conveniently employ under the concept of Collegiality.
The TIA believes Benedict XVI is the Pope and they believe in all the rights and authority of the Papacy, but they also believe that Pope Benedict XVI is a pertinacious heretic before God who rejects Benedict as His true Vicar, but leaves him in place as a cardboard caricature the TIA can throw darts at while refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the very rights and authority they hypocritically say he possesses. Forget about “kissing the Koran”, we’re talking about his Primacy and the supreme authority over the Liturgies, the Laws and the teachings of the Church.

And I find this just a bit absurd:

So, the big question is: Did the Lord Jesus Christ ever intimate that Caiaphas was not the High Priest/Pope? The answer is: no. The Lord Jesus Christ, who had more reasons than anyone to be a sede-vacantist, was not. When it comes to apostasy and heresy, Caiaphas pretty much takes the cake, but Our Lord never challenged the fact that he was High Priest/Pope.
The implication is clear; if Benedict XVI is a heretic, Caiphas, the High Priest and “pope” was even a worse apostate and a heretic for not recognizing our Lord and for plotting His death (just like St. Paul, who also knew Scripture).

This is the point he misses: Never once did our Lord tell the Jews that they could disobey the High priest (who receives his authority directly from God) in the observance of the Laws and Rituals - He said just the opposite.

I simply take such nonsense for what its worth.
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Re: Neo Cons & Sede's both in the same boat

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