Latest topics
» Rethink "Feeneyism"?
Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:34 pm by MRyan

» Brother Andre Marie MICM, the Prior at the St. Benedict Center does not correct Frs.Brian Harrison and Cekada,Bishops Sanborn,Pirvanus,Kelly and Fellay
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:24 pm by MRyan

» Revisiting Diocese/Parish Screening Policy
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:03 pm by MRyan

» When sedes and trads can accept that Pius XII made a mistake then popes since John XXIII are no more in heresy
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:08 pm by MRyan

» Doctrinal talks were conducted with Fr.Gleize on 'the other side'
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:08 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Pope Benedict permitted Fr. Jean Marie Gleize to lead in doctrinal talks since he was a liberal ?
Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:59 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Padre Pio told Fr.Gabriel Amorth," It is Satan who has been introduced into the bosom of the Church and within a very short time will come to rule a false Church" -Bishop Richard Williamson
Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:14 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Mons. Brunero Gherardini misled the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and many traditionalists
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:18 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Official statement from SSPX awaited : Fr.Gleize and other theologians have got it wrong
Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:10 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Brother Andre Marie MICM too is teaching error : Bishop Sanborn cannot report at the Chancery office
Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:50 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Magsiterial Heresy ?
Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:36 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Magisterium should apologise to the SSPX for the excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre
Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:34 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Brother Francis MICM made a mistake on Vatican Council II
Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:14 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Legion of Christ universities in Rome adapt to leftist laws
Fri May 22, 2015 7:53 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» CM, SSPX, MICM deny the Faith to please superiors
Thu May 21, 2015 4:44 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» SSPX and Church Militant are using the same liberal theology and are unaware of it
Wed May 20, 2015 9:54 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Michael Voris uses liberal theology and yet critcizes Michael Coren
Tue May 19, 2015 10:10 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Fr.John Zuhlsdorf condones Mass for suicide
Tue May 19, 2015 9:18 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Vatican Council II is traditional or liberal depending on how you interpret the Letter of the Holy Office
Mon May 18, 2015 5:57 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Church Militant unable to answer questions on extra ecclesiam nulla salus
Sun May 17, 2015 5:55 am by Lionel L. Andrades


We Have a Pope!

View previous topic View next topic Go down

We Have a Pope!

Post  Roguejim on Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:50 pm

This isn't a particularly deep set of questions, but I know someone here will have the answer. Assuming we do not have a pope at the present time...

1) Will there be another?

2) If so, who will tell us when he is elected?

I asked this on AQ years ago. The answer I got to #2 was "the Holy Spirit". If this is correct, by what human instrument will the Spirit notify mankind that "We Have a Pope"?
Who is or will be the appointed one, or ones?
avatar
Roguejim

Posts : 211
Reputation : 315
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : southern Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  simple Faith on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:31 pm

Good questions Roguejim, I've asked the same from Fatima, Bernadette and Columba, but still no answer. They are all very good at telling us who not to follow but fall short on telling us who should lead the Church on earth. So don't hold your breath waiting on an answer.
avatar
simple Faith

Posts : 164
Reputation : 179
Join date : 2011-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Jehanne on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:40 pm

Just because we do not have an answer to that question does not mean that we wish to follow the current Pope to Hell, which is where he is going. Most human beings are destined for Hell:

1) It says so, explicitly, in Sacred Scripture.

2) Such was the universal teaching of the Doctors & Fathers of the Church.

3) The Blessed Mother revealed the same at Fatima.
avatar
Jehanne

Posts : 926
Reputation : 1025
Join date : 2010-12-21
Age : 49
Location : Iowa

http://unamsanctamecclesiamcatholicam.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  simple Faith on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:56 pm

So Jehanne, please show where in sacred scripture does it state that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
Where in universal teaching of the Doctors & Fathers of the Church does it state that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
Where did The Blessed Mother reveal at Fatima that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
I wish I had the same patience and self restraint as George Bremmer does hen posting a reply but unfortunately I don't so I'll say no more for now.
avatar
simple Faith

Posts : 164
Reputation : 179
Join date : 2011-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Jehanne on Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:18 pm

A real-life example:

http://www.cmri.org/02-sisters-letter.html

More theological:

http://www.cmri.org/theolog.htm
http://www.stpiusvchapel.org/flash_paper/articles/003_declaration_principles.swf

Makes sense to me; not perfect, of course, but it's the best theological position as far as I am concerned and the one with the fewest of contradictions:

1891 Baltimore Catechism

Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?

A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.

According to the new Rome, the cannot enter heaven does not really mean "cannot enter heaven"; in fact, the text really means that infants who die without Baptism really do go to Heaven, or at least we "are allowed to hope that they do," when, in fact, the Church has already told us, time and time, that they do not. That's how the authors of the Baltimore Catechism intended it to be read (or did they?!)

(Okay, the "fog in my head" is starting to clear... And, of course, there's no "contradiction," only "development.")
avatar
Jehanne

Posts : 926
Reputation : 1025
Join date : 2010-12-21
Age : 49
Location : Iowa

http://unamsanctamecclesiamcatholicam.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  columba on Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:48 pm

Roguejim wrote:This isn't a particularly deep set of questions, but I know someone here will have the answer. Assuming we do not have a pope at the present time...

1) Will there be another?

2) If so, who will tell us when he is elected?

I asked this on AQ years ago. The answer I got to #2 was "the Holy Spirit". If this is correct, by what human instrument will the Spirit notify mankind that "We Have a Pope"?
Who is or will be the appointed one, or ones?

What your really asking Jim is, "Is the sedevacantist position a theological impossibility?"
If the answer hinges on some fallible lay person being able to positively answer your listed questions then that still doesn't get us anywhere.
Lets assume again then. Lets say it was a reality that we (or some future age) didn't have a valid Pope, does not knowing where or how the next Pope will arrive change the fact that there was not a valid Pope in situ?

Lets assume again that indeed we do have a valid Pope; does that mean we can never have an invalid one some time in the future. This question has been discussed already here and on many other sites and no matter what Mike or others say, there are no shortage of Church Doctors and theologians who've addressed this issue and they have indeed stated that a heretic cannot be Pope. The only question is then, Does the current Pope hold and promote heretical doctrines? That's the million dollar question and would be easily answered if it were someone other than a Pope; someone like me for instance who held the same views as BXVI concerning the very nature of the Church. You would all condemn me as a heretic. No? If not then why say I'm a heretic for speculating as to the legitimacy of BXVI when the Doctors have themselves speculated as to the possibility of such occurring, and even offered advice as to how to procede in such an unfortunate situation?

Not knowing the answers to your questions wouldn't necessarily make an invalid Pope valid.
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  columba on Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:00 pm



Jehanne I think your last post was meant for the other thread.

Simple Fath
Simple Faith wrote:
So Jehanne, please show where in sacred scripture does it state that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
Where in universal teaching of the Doctors & Fathers of the Church does it state that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
Where did The Blessed Mother reveal at Fatima that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.

Nowhere in sacred scripture, teachings of saint, doctors or Our Lady of Fatima does it tell us we should not follow the Pope.
Can you tell us Simple Faith where any of the above mentioned state that we should follow an invalid Pope or heretic?
That's the difference you see. You have already made up your mind that BXVI is legit; others have made up their minds to the contrary and some have yet to decide.
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Allie on Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:25 pm

columba wrote:


Simple Fath
Simple Faith wrote:
So Jehanne, please show where in sacred scripture does it state that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
Where in universal teaching of the Doctors & Fathers of the Church does it state that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
Where did The Blessed Mother reveal at Fatima that we should not follow the Pope,the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.

Nowhere in sacred scripture, teachings of saint, doctors or Our Lady of Fatima does it tell us we should not follow the Pope.
Can you tell us Simple Faith where any of the above mentioned state that we should follow an invalid Pope or heretic?
That's the difference you see. You have already made up your mind that BXVI is legit; others have made up their minds to the contrary and some have yet to decide.

Hi columba

I believe that you are an intelligent man who is willing to be reasonable in discussion. I am curious about your thoughts on why they would need to tell us to follow an invalid Pope or heretic, unless that was preordained to occur; in which case wouldn't it be fair to assume we would be warned of it..and if not explicitly, then at least in biblical type of some sort? Have we been warned of it directly or indirectly from Scripture?

I am also wondering about your understanding (and others, not just columba) on how it plays into this mix when, in Matthew 23: 2-3, Jesus says to the crowds and disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach but do not practice."

According to my understanding, Moses' seat in the OT has been replaced with the "seat/chair of Peter" in the NT and through to the second coming of Christ. It would appear to me then that we have been given instructions from Jesus Himself to submit to and obey the authority of Peter; even if his actions are not seeming to jive (or just plain are not jiveing) with what we know to be prudent and orthodox. He does not instruct us to accuse of heresy and cut ourselves off from whomever is sitting on "the seat" (and we see His disgust with the scribes and pharisees of the time and their grave errors as we continue reading Mt 23).

So ultimately, Mt 23 appears to be instructing us to submit to the authority of the Pope (any pope, even really bad popes) but not to commit the same errors he may be guilty of in his own living out of the Faith in practice.

avatar
Allie

Posts : 100
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2010-12-20
Location : southern Ohio, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Roguejim on Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:30 am

Jehanne wrote:Just because we do not have an answer to that question does not mean that we wish to follow the current Pope to Hell, which is where he is going. Most human beings are destined for Hell:

1) It says so, explicitly, in Sacred Scripture.

2) Such was the universal teaching of the Doctors & Fathers of the Church.

3) The Blessed Mother revealed the same at Fatima.

I appreciate your admission that you "do not have an answer to that question", all subsequent red herrings of yours aside. But, may I ask, does it bother you that you have no answer for so practical and unavoidable a question? It would drive me to despair.
avatar
Roguejim

Posts : 211
Reputation : 315
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : southern Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Roguejim on Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:42 am

columba wrote:
Roguejim wrote:This isn't a particularly deep set of questions, but I know someone here will have the answer. Assuming we do not have a pope at the present time...

1) Will there be another?

2) If so, who will tell us when he is elected?

I asked this on AQ years ago. The answer I got to #2 was "the Holy Spirit". If this is correct, by what human instrument will the Spirit notify mankind that "We Have a Pope"?
Who is or will be the appointed one, or ones?

What your really asking Jim is, "Is the sedevacantist position a theological impossibility?"
If the answer hinges on some fallible lay person being able to positively answer your listed questions then that still doesn't get us anywhere.
Lets assume again then. Lets say it was a reality that we (or some future age) didn't have a valid Pope, does not knowing where or how the next Pope will arrive change the fact that there was not a valid Pope in situ?

Lets assume again that indeed we do have a valid Pope; does that mean we can never have an invalid one some time in the future. This question has been discussed already here and on many other sites and no matter what Mike or others say, there are no shortage of Church Doctors and theologians who've addressed this issue and they have indeed stated that a heretic cannot be Pope. The only question is then, Does the current Pope hold and promote heretical doctrines? That's the million dollar question and would be easily answered if it were someone other than a Pope; someone like me for instance who held the same views as BXVI concerning the very nature of the Church. You would all condemn me as a heretic. No? If not then why say I'm a heretic for speculating as to the legitimacy of BXVI when the Doctors have themselves speculated as to the possibility of such occurring, and even offered advice as to how to procede in such an unfortunate situation?

Not knowing the answers to your questions wouldn't necessarily make an invalid Pope valid.

Uh no, my question is exactly as I wrote it, in the plain sense of the words. It is a valid and practical question which you choose to dodge by posing a different question, and thus, hijack the thread. (This goes to everyone else in this thread who has dodged the question in favor of something extraneous). This is my thread, so have the courtesy to give a straight answer to my question(s). Surely you are farsighted enough to have given this question due attention? You really have nothing?
avatar
Roguejim

Posts : 211
Reputation : 315
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : southern Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  simple Faith on Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:10 am

I wrote previously,
"They are all very good at telling us who not to follow but fall short on telling us who should lead the Church on earth. So don't hold your breath waiting on an answer."

Told you Roguejim, you'll get endless amounts of philosophising but what you won't get from some people is a straight answer.
avatar
simple Faith

Posts : 164
Reputation : 179
Join date : 2011-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Jehanne on Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:13 am

Roguejim wrote:
Jehanne wrote:Just because we do not have an answer to that question does not mean that we wish to follow the current Pope to Hell, which is where he is going. Most human beings are destined for Hell:

1) It says so, explicitly, in Sacred Scripture.

2) Such was the universal teaching of the Doctors & Fathers of the Church.

3) The Blessed Mother revealed the same at Fatima.

I appreciate your admission that you "do not have an answer to that question", all subsequent red herrings of yours aside. But, may I ask, does it bother you that you have no answer for so practical and unavoidable a question? It would drive me to despair.

I could care less, honestly, if the Chair of Peter is occupied or not; there are traditional bishops & priests within the SSPX/SSPV/CMRI/SBCs, and that is, for me, sufficient. It is these folks from whom I seek guidance; modernist Rome speaks with a "forked tongue." For instance, is #1261 in the CCC referring to Heaven or is it referring to Limbo (see Index, CCC)? If the latter, I see no problem; if the former, a big one. However, why even bother with Popes, real or not, who write so much and yet say so little?

For me, this thread is purely an academic question.
avatar
Jehanne

Posts : 926
Reputation : 1025
Join date : 2010-12-21
Age : 49
Location : Iowa

http://unamsanctamecclesiamcatholicam.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Saviorsheart on Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:02 am

I agree with Allie, RogueJim and SimpleFaith. We should all follow the Pope even if he is a heretic because the Pope is the Pope. If we don't follow the Pope, then who do we follow?

Ofcourse, I don't believe he is a heretic. I agree with everything the Pope says and does.
I'm glad the Church has become more liberal in recent years. Vatican II was a blessing which brought a new enlightened understanding to the faith.

Saviorsheart

Posts : 8
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2011-02-20

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  columba on Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:29 am

Roguejim wrote:
columba wrote:
Roguejim wrote:This isn't a particularly deep set of questions, but I know someone here will have the answer. Assuming we do not have a pope at the present time...

1) Will there be another?

2) If so, who will tell us when he is elected?

I asked this on AQ years ago. The answer I got to #2 was "the Holy Spirit". If this is correct, by what human instrument will the Spirit notify mankind that "We Have a Pope"?
Who is or will be the appointed one, or ones?

What your really asking Jim is, "Is the sedevacantist position a theological impossibility?"
If the answer hinges on some fallible lay person being able to positively answer your listed questions then that still doesn't get us anywhere.
Lets assume again then. Lets say it was a reality that we (or some future age) didn't have a valid Pope, does not knowing where or how the next Pope will arrive change the fact that there was not a valid Pope in situ?

Lets assume again that indeed we do have a valid Pope; does that mean we can never have an invalid one some time in the future. This question has been discussed already here and on many other sites and no matter what Mike or others say, there are no shortage of Church Doctors and theologians who've addressed this issue and they have indeed stated that a heretic cannot be Pope. The only question is then, Does the current Pope hold and promote heretical doctrines? That's the million dollar question and would be easily answered if it were someone other than a Pope; someone like me for instance who held the same views as BXVI concerning the very nature of the Church. You would all condemn me as a heretic. No? If not then why say I'm a heretic for speculating as to the legitimacy of BXVI when the Doctors have themselves speculated as to the possibility of such occurring, and even offered advice as to how to procede in such an unfortunate situation?

Not knowing the answers to your questions wouldn't necessarily make an invalid Pope valid.

Uh no, my question is exactly as I wrote it, in the plain sense of the words. It is a valid and practical question which you choose to dodge by posing a different question, and thus, hijack the thread. (This goes to everyone else in this thread who has dodged the question in favor of something extraneous). This is my thread, so have the courtesy to give a straight answer to my question(s). Surely you are farsighted enough to have given this question due attention? You really have nothing?

Apologies Jim if I've hijacked your thread. it was not intentional. I did answer your questions however even if indirectly. The answer from me personally is that I don't know.

I could have suppled a list of possible answers none of which I'm convinced of myself. One such possible resolve to your question concerning who will elect the next Pope (assuming the current pope is invalid and the whole catholic world is following him) would be that he promotes something so obviously anti-cathoilic that everyone wakes up as a result (including the cardinals) and they then decide how to procede from there.
Another possibilty: The criteria for the election of a pope falls under Church disciplinary law. These disciplinary laws are in place to aid the smooth every-day running of Chuch affairs and to keep order. If however an emergency arises and the law begins to hinder the operation of the Church and actually works to her detriment, in such times these laws can be legitimately suspended and in the case of the election of a pope, supplied jurisdiction could be granted to even those outside the espicopate (if the same have all apostatized) and the faithful themselves could have a say in the election.
(Note: It is however of Divine law that a heretic cannot be Pope)
The fact that there are still a minority of bishops who do still hold the Catholic faith it is most likely that supplied jurisdiction would go to them.
Speculation I know, but merely to show that there are some possibilities though my personal belief is that of miraculous divine intervention. (provided we are still permitted to believe in miracles?)

As to your question, "Will there be another Pope?" depends how much time we have left.

avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  columba on Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:36 am

Ps.
I vote Saviorsheart for next pope. Smile
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  columba on Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:01 am

Allie wrote:
Hi columba

I believe that you are an intelligent man who is willing to be reasonable in discussion.

Hi Allie,

I don't consider myself intelligent. Intelligence is no gauarantor of holiness and can work against one more often than for, but I would like to believe myself reasonable in discussion.
I'll respond to your questions as soon as I can.
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: We have a Pope!

Post  George Brenner on Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:58 pm

Hello Roguejim,

The name of this thread is an announcement of Joy !.... not a question.

WE HAVE A POPE!

So the answer as simply as I can put it is.....YES
avatar
George Brenner

Posts : 604
Reputation : 674
Join date : 2011-09-08

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Allie on Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:11 pm

columba wrote:
Hi Allie,

I'll respond to your questions as soon as I can.

Thank you, columba, I'm looking forward to it when you get the chance.

Jim, would you prefer this be answered/continued in a new thread? I am sorry for veering the discussion off course in my post.

avatar
Allie

Posts : 100
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2010-12-20
Location : southern Ohio, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  columba on Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Hi again Allie,

Hi columba

I believe that you are an intelligent man who is willing to be reasonable in discussion. I am curious about your thoughts on why they would need to tell us to follow an invalid Pope or heretic, unless that was preordained to occur; in which case wouldn't it be fair to assume we would be warned of it..and if not explicitly, then at least in biblical type of some sort? Have we been warned of it directly or indirectly from Scripture?

Regarding biblical prophesies, they are of course open to interpretation and until their fulfillment they can't infallibly be understood but here are a few that give cause for concern.

Matthew 24:15; “When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let
him understand.”


This one is worrying when it speaks of “The holy place” being where the abomination of desolation will be found and our Lord here refers to Daniel where we are told also of the perpetual sacrifice being abolished.

2 Thess. 2:3-5-;“Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

And again here when St Paul talks of the temple of God as the place where the son of perdition shall sit.

Luke 18:8-; “But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he
find, think you, faith on earth?”


And here Our Lord warns of the faith being hard to find on His return.
On the most recent count there are estimated to be 1.2 billion Catholics in the world and yet faith may not be found on Our Lords return. Worrying.
Again I'm not suggesting I know the interpretation of these prophesies but they are given for a reason and are not expendable. If when Our Lord returns he may well find over 1.2 billion Catholics but only a handful with true faith.

If we add to these biblical prophesies some of the saints prophesies I suggest that we could possibly have a few antipopes to come before the end of time.

Prophecy of St. Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted. The Church will sink deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles to have expired. But, after this, she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters.”

St Bernard says, “Towards the end of the world, Antichrist will overthrow the pope and usurp his see.”

And Fr. Herman Kramer who was a scholarly writer and studied for 30 years the book of Apocalypse writes, “St. Paul says that Antichrist ‘sitteth in the temple of God’… This is not the ancient Temple of Jerusalem, nor a temple like it built by Antichrist, as some have thought, for
then it would be his own temple… this temple is shown to be a Catholic Church, possibly one of the churches in Jerusalem or St. Peter’s in Rome, which is the largest church in the world and is in the full sense ‘The Temple of God.’


I am also wondering about your understanding (and others, not just columba) on how it plays into this mix when, in Matthew 23: 2-3, Jesus says to the crowds and disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach but do not practice."
In my view Matthew 23: 2-3 is not problematic in so far as the scribes and Pharisies handed on the proper teachings although they themselves did not practice them. We are dealing here with sinful men but not apostates and even though those of the same who incited the people against Christ where in legal authority, the people who listened to them were themselves guilty for following them in their designs against Christ, therefore Our Lord does not wish us to obey illegitimate dictates even when they're given from the recognized authority.

According to my understanding, Moses' seat in the OT has been replaced with the "seat/chair of Peter" in the NT and through to the second coming of Christ. It would appear to me then that we have been given instructions from Jesus Himself to submit to and obey the authority of Peter; even if his actions are not seeming to jive (or just plain are not jiveing) with what we know to be prudent and orthodox. He does not instruct us to accuse of heresy and cut ourselves off from whomever is sitting on "the seat" (and we see His disgust with the scribes and pharisees of the time and their grave errors as we continue reading Mt 23).
If then what you know not to be prudent is placed before you as that which has to be obeyed, would you abandon prudence in favor of obedience?
Accusations of heresy can be made if one knows what heresy is. If one were to here or see an obvious heresy and then were to follow it, that would be a lie against truth on the part of the one who though knowing it not to be in accord with the faith still follows it.
Obedience Yes; but not to the extent of committing sin.
Thankfully I have never been put in the position where I had to chose between obedience or lawful disobedience as the Pope has never issued any new decree. The closest to that has been the NO Mass but I'm not unlawfully disobeying the Church by refusing to attend it; I merely consider it protecting my soul against error and sacrilegious practices.
Probably everyone here would be astute enough in their faith to recognize a heretical statement if I were to make one. They wouldn't necessarily be judging me if they pointed out my error. In Fact if done in charity they'd be helping me.

So ultimately, Mt 23 appears to be instructing us to submit to the authority of the Pope (any pope, even really bad popes) but not to commit the same errors he may be guilty of in his own living out of the Faith in practice.
His own personal sins are not an issue at all, The true faith though is a serious issue and if a Pope were to deviate from it he would find himself ipso facto outside the Church and cut off from the body. Whether this be recognized or not by the faithful, wouldn't change the status of his self excommunication.

Allie these are my own personal thoughts and they are completely fallible but in accord with the truth as I know it. If I were certain of my deductions I would not be sitting on any fence. In the meantime I keep a good hold of my rosary and pray for enlightenment. Maybe that's why I haven't had definitive answers as yet; it might well be good for my soul to keep praying without the answers while relying on the words of St Louis de Montfort, "Those who pray the rosary everyday will certainly not be lost.
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

We Have a Pope?

Post  George Brenner on Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:41 pm

Hello Columba,


I can not but help notice your yearning and good will to be a good Catholic. I beg you stay in the Catholic Church. The Rosary, the Mother of Jesus, Our Blessed Mother.... I can not find any human words to decribe how I feel.

And I quote from Columba:

2 Thess. 2:3-5-;“Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

End of Quote from Columba.

I almost hang on every word, especially "showing himself as if he were God. "

There is no doubt that the battle of Good versus evil will play out. We know not the hour is for sure but we certainly are in treacherous waters in our times; all the more reason to love , be submissive to and pray for our Pope as he battles all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. The words and actions of the Church Militant are more needed now then possibly any time in history. Love the Church and love the Pope. Support the Pope. Be submissive to the Pope.
When the One comes to show himself as if he were God it will be very obvious to true Catholics, but not to those who mock Christ's Church. The warning trumphet will sound and we will know , that the time is now. In the meantime we need to practice our Faith daily and help each other.

avatar
George Brenner

Posts : 604
Reputation : 674
Join date : 2011-09-08

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Allie on Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:13 pm

columba wrote:Hi again Allie,

Hi columba

I believe that you are an intelligent man who is willing to be reasonable in discussion. I am curious about your thoughts on why they would need to tell us to follow an invalid Pope or heretic, unless that was preordained to occur; in which case wouldn't it be fair to assume we would be warned of it..and if not explicitly, then at least in biblical type of some sort? Have we been warned of it directly or indirectly from Scripture?

Regarding biblical prophesies, they are of course open to interpretation and until their fulfillment they can't infallibly be understood but here are a few that give cause for concern.

Matthew 24:15; “When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let
him understand.”


This one is worrying when it speaks of “The holy place” being where the abomination of desolation will be found and our Lord here refers to Daniel where we are told also of the perpetual sacrifice being abolished.

2 Thess. 2:3-5-;“Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?”

And again here when St Paul talks of the temple of God as the place where the son of perdition shall sit.

Luke 18:8-; “But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he
find, think you, faith on earth?”


And here Our Lord warns of the faith being hard to find on His return.
On the most recent count there are estimated to be 1.2 billion Catholics in the world and yet faith may not be found on Our Lords return. Worrying.
Again I'm not suggesting I know the interpretation of these prophesies but they are given for a reason and are not expendable. If when Our Lord returns he may well find over 1.2 billion Catholics but only a handful with true faith.

If we add to these biblical prophesies some of the saints prophesies I suggest that we could possibly have a few antipopes to come before the end of time.

Prophecy of St. Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted. The Church will sink deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles to have expired. But, after this, she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters.”

St Bernard says, “Towards the end of the world, Antichrist will overthrow the pope and usurp his see.”

And Fr. Herman Kramer who was a scholarly writer and studied for 30 years the book of Apocalypse writes, “St. Paul says that Antichrist ‘sitteth in the temple of God’… This is not the ancient Temple of Jerusalem, nor a temple like it built by Antichrist, as some have thought, for
then it would be his own temple… this temple is shown to be a Catholic Church, possibly one of the churches in Jerusalem or St. Peter’s in Rome, which is the largest church in the world and is in the full sense ‘The Temple of God.’


I am also wondering about your understanding (and others, not just columba) on how it plays into this mix when, in Matthew 23: 2-3, Jesus says to the crowds and disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach but do not practice."
In my view Matthew 23: 2-3 is not problematic in so far as the scribes and Pharisies handed on the proper teachings although they themselves did not practice them. We are dealing here with sinful men but not apostates and even though those of the same who incited the people against Christ where in legal authority, the people who listened to them were themselves guilty for following them in their designs against Christ, therefore Our Lord does not wish us to obey illegitimate dictates even when they're given from the recognized authority.

According to my understanding, Moses' seat in the OT has been replaced with the "seat/chair of Peter" in the NT and through to the second coming of Christ. It would appear to me then that we have been given instructions from Jesus Himself to submit to and obey the authority of Peter; even if his actions are not seeming to jive (or just plain are not jiveing) with what we know to be prudent and orthodox. He does not instruct us to accuse of heresy and cut ourselves off from whomever is sitting on "the seat" (and we see His disgust with the scribes and pharisees of the time and their grave errors as we continue reading Mt 23).
If then what you know not to be prudent is placed before you as that which has to be obeyed, would you abandon prudence in favor of obedience?
Accusations of heresy can be made if one knows what heresy is. If one were to here or see an obvious heresy and then were to follow it, that would be a lie against truth on the part of the one who though knowing it not to be in accord with the faith still follows it.
Obedience Yes; but not to the extent of committing sin.
Thankfully I have never been put in the position where I had to chose between obedience or lawful disobedience as the Pope has never issued any new decree. The closest to that has been the NO Mass but I'm not unlawfully disobeying the Church by refusing to attend it; I merely consider it protecting my soul against error and sacrilegious practices.
Probably everyone here would be astute enough in their faith to recognize a heretical statement if I were to make one. They wouldn't necessarily be judging me if they pointed out my error. In Fact if done in charity they'd be helping me.

So ultimately, Mt 23 appears to be instructing us to submit to the authority of the Pope (any pope, even really bad popes) but not to commit the same errors he may be guilty of in his own living out of the Faith in practice.
His own personal sins are not an issue at all, The true faith though is a serious issue and if a Pope were to deviate from it he would find himself ipso facto outside the Church and cut off from the body. Whether this be recognized or not by the faithful, wouldn't change the status of his self excommunication.

Allie these are my own personal thoughts and they are completely fallible but in accord with the truth as I know it. If I were certain of my deductions I would not be sitting on any fence. In the meantime I keep a good hold of my rosary and pray for enlightenment. Maybe that's why I haven't had definitive answers as yet; it might well be good for my soul to keep praying without the answers while relying on the words of St Louis de Montfort, "Those who pray the rosary everyday will certainly not be lost.

I know you were probably thinking that you were done with me here, (or maybe hoping? ?). I'm sorry that I haven't responded yet, I have become busy with my daily duties and haven't been able to "form" my response as of yet without neglecting my household. Not that it (my response) will be anything profound, just a few things I wanted to touch on.

I hope you are well- have a blessed weekend, Columba.
avatar
Allie

Posts : 100
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2010-12-20
Location : southern Ohio, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  columba on Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:32 pm

Allie wrote:
I know you were probably thinking that you were done with me here, (or maybe hoping? ?). I'm sorry that I haven't responded yet, I have become busy with my daily duties and haven't been able to "form" my response as of yet without neglecting my household. Not that it (my response) will be anything profound, just a few things I wanted to touch on.

I hope you are well- have a blessed weekend, Columba.

Hi Allie,
As St Padre Pio would say, "Duty before everything, even holy things." Mind you, replying to me wouldn't count as a holy thing so your twice excused. Smile
Look forward to hearing you. Mike no doubt will keep me on me toes in the meantime.

God bless Allie and a good weekend to you too.


avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  MRyan on Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:45 pm

columba wrote:
Hi Allie,

Look forward to hearing you. Mike no doubt will keep me on me toes in the meantime.
More like on your heels. I hope you know how to "rope-a-dope". Very Happy

avatar
MRyan

Posts : 2259
Reputation : 2431
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  pascendi on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:44 am

Roguejim wrote:This isn't a particularly deep set of questions, but I know someone here will have the answer. Assuming we do not have a pope at the present time...

1) Will there be another?

2) If so, who will tell us when he is elected?

I asked this on AQ years ago. The answer I got to #2 was "the Holy Spirit". If this is correct, by what human instrument will the Spirit notify mankind that "We Have a Pope"?
Who is or will be the appointed one, or ones?

The chief defenders of the papacy here are the ones who are supplying the spiritual drugs necessary for a person to begin to flirt with the sede argument... in one way, on the theological level, and in another way, on the social level. On the theological level, they assist the potential sede to his destination by holding a mere theological opinion as if it were dogma, which is the opinion that a pope who in any way violates the faith loses his place as Vicar of Christ. They believe themselves to be well studied and articulate in this matter, yet nonetheless, they are holding the bag containing a mere theological opinion. However, that opinion opens the gate of Hell for the potential sede.

The second way that they propel the sede on his way to a destructive conclusion is more simple and more powerful: socially. They're jerks. Total and complete jerks who care more about being respected for their knowledge than they are about the salvation of a soul. They'd rather be right while mocking someone to Hell than to actually reaching out a hand in good faith and charity. It takes a wiser man to know how to deal with the weak and the sinful man.

There's your answer. However, you'll never read it I suppose, because you've already wised up to the pitfalls of the Catholic forum as we've known it, and have moved on.

God's Rottweilers seem to cause more loss of the Catholic faith in people than they cause a winning over of souls, and that... that, they'll pay for.

pascendi

Posts : 96
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2011-05-19
Location : Forum Founder

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  MRyan on Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:02 am

And so it begins, again.

The wise Catholic sage and part-time spiritual director says there is a better way to deal with the "sinful man", and he showed us a bit of this wisdom on the original forum where he condemned all sedevacantists, even those he did not know or had ever read, as non-Catholic heretics and schismatics. It’s that simple, end of story and it is true because he said it is true. In fact, he said he could debate someone on a Catholic issue without knowing or having read that person’s arguments. I mean the dude is that good; just ask him.

This all began when I cited a Jesuit educated (the old school) sede named James Larson who was sympathetic to Fr. Feeney and who gave an excellent presentation on some critical aspects of baptism of desire. This was the infamous “Must I Believe It” thread that Paul Moeller couldn’t bother to follow until this caught his eye and proceeded to hi-jack the thread in order to attack the man rather than his arguments, and make it his personal mission in life to convince everyone what a charlatan and what a danger I was to the forum.

His personal problems aside, he could not respond to my arguments when I easily demonstrated why his attempt at a refutation of canon George Smith (“Must I Believe It”) was false in each and every case. He never got around to responding because the entire thread was now about Paul Moeller and how smart he is and what a danger MRyan is. I mean, hide the woman and children – here comes MRyan.

Typical of Moeller, he totally misrepresents my (and others) arguments and by doing so represents his manufactured straw-man as “supplying the spiritual drugs necessary for a person to begin to flirt with the sede argument... in one way, on the theological level, and in another way, on the social level.”

Let’s look at the alleged “mere theological opinion” I am said to hold “as if it were dogma, which is the opinion that a pope who in any way violates the faith loses his place as Vicar of Christ.”

This is of course simply and factually incorrect, not that facts ever mattered to Moeller. The issue is whether the pope as a public person (as “Peter”) can lose the Catholic Faith by becoming a pertinacious obstinate heretic. If Moeller wants to argue that a sitting Pope can become a manifest public heretic and lose the Catholic faith, good for him; but why he sees this as a logical buttress against sedeism is beyond me; for any self-respecting sede (and most Catholics) rejects this notion as madness, for it turns the Vicar of Christ into a two-headed monster, with the spectacle of seeing a pertinacious obstinate public heretic and non-Catholic with episcopal and immediate Primacy over the universal Catholic Church.

Some of us argue that that’s not exactly what VCI and our Lord had in mind when He promised Peter the charism of a never-failing faith so that he could strengthen his brethren in the Faith and be the rock-solid foundation upon whom the entire visible edifice rests since he is the foundation for the unity of faith and communion for all Catholics (de fide).

But that’s OK, the wise Catholic sage has spoken and anyone can email him if they want to get more of this personal wisdom and spiritual direction; after all, his concern is that Catholics remain Catholic and don’t turn into non-Catholic sedevacantists; or worse yet, Catholics like MRyan.

And Moeller is back to assure our forum readers that those who argue against the sedevacantist position (people like me –you think?) are “Total and complete jerks who care more about being respected for their knowledge than they are about the salvation of a soul. They'd rather be right while mocking someone to Hell than to actually reaching out a hand in good faith and charity. It takes a wiser man to know how to deal with the weak and the sinful man.”

A wise man like Paul Moeller who condemns all sedevancantists to hell for being obstinate heretics who are excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

See, with me, I’d rather be “right while mocking someone to Hell than to actually reaching out a hand in good faith and charity”; just ask Moeller who in fact did lose the Catholic faith (he told me so) and then blamed it on me. And since our forum readers are not made of the same spiritual stuff of Moeller, they definitely run the risk of losing the faith if they hang around me for too long - see, I don't care about such things, its all about me; just ask Moeller.

Physician, heal thyself and go back to more honorable pursuits like navel gazing and Facebook.

You want to have a debate, Moeller, or do you want to just run your mouth?

I haven’t gone anywhere, and find your back-handed insults, character assassination and demonstrable arrogance just as annoying as ever.

No one is going to listen to you about the "evil" of this forum, so either just go away, or make an argument - if you are capable of actually making one.
avatar
MRyan

Posts : 2259
Reputation : 2431
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Re: We Have a Pope!

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum