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Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

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Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  Jehanne on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:51 pm

In Unam Sanctam, Pope Boniface states,

We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

Just as it is forbidden to baptize non-Catholic children against the will and wishes of their parents (unless there is danger of death), as they will not even raise that child as a Catholic, so, too, non-Catholic societies cannot be expected to promote and defend the One True Faith & Church, at least without first converting to Roman Catholicism. Since there are no more Catholic monarchies or even Catholic nations left in the World today, and as it is immoral for a non-Catholic society to suppress the True religion and/or to promote a false one (especially, by suppressing the True one), this leaves religious freedom as being the "default" position for the pagan and/or non-Catholic societies which now make-up the entire World.
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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  columba on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:27 pm

But is not Dignitatis Humanae proposing that even in a state/nation where Catholicism was "thee religion," religious freedom should be the default position?
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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  columba on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:24 pm

In practical terms this religious freedom could (and most likely will) result in the eradication of Christianity by stealth as opposed to open confrontation as was the means employed in days gone by.

All the more likely is this when we consider the politcal undertones apparent in most of the Vat II documents where it seems that democracy is the now accepted and preferred political system of the reformed Catholic Church. How they come to the conclusion that democracy is any less (potentially) evil a system than say dictatorship or Monarchy is hard to figure out. If anything, democracy facilitates more than any other system, the comming to power of the lowest common denominator (morally speaking) especially when it be the case that the majority (not God) become the arbiters of good and evil. Contrary to the now popular belief, there have been quite a few just Kings, queens and even dictators, or at the very least, less oppresive ones than we currently have at the head of some democracies.

Without turning your thread into a political rant, suffice it to say, democracy is also the preferred system of One World Government (at least democratic in name if nothing else) and probably the best politcal system from which a One World church could emerge.


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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  MRyan on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:40 am

columba wrote:In practical terms this religious freedom could (and most likely will) result in the eradication of Christianity by stealth as opposed to open confrontation as was the means employed in days gone by.
Note well your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the subject post - nothing, except some vague rant against the Church for advocating "this religious freedom"?

columba wrote:All the more likely is this
All the more likely is what? The "eradication of Christianity" because the temporal power no long wields its power for the Church at the will of the priest?

columba wrote: when we consider the politcal undertones apparent in most of the Vat II documents where it seems that democracy is the now accepted and preferred political system of the reformed Catholic Church.
"Political undertones" with "democracy" being the "accepted and preferred political system" of the "reformed Catholic Church".

How very rich, and a superb straw man.

columba wrote:How they come to the conclusion that democracy is any less (potentially) evil a system than say dictatorship or Monarchy is hard to figure out.
So we went from "political undertones, and "it seems" to the Church "figuring out" that "democracy" is "less evil" than a "dictatorship or Monarchy", but columba is not sure how the Church "figured this out".

If columba said it, it must be true. But where is this "democracy"?

columba wrote:If anything, democracy facilitates more than any other system, the comming to power of the lowest common denominator (morally speaking) especially when it be the case that the majority (not God) become the arbiters of good and evil. Contrary to the now popular belief, there have been quite a few just Kings, queens and even dictators, or at the very least, less oppressive ones than we currently have at the head of some democracies.

Without turning your thread into a political rant, suffice it to say, democracy is also the preferred system of One World Government (at least democratic in name if nothing else) and probably the best politcal system from which a One World church could emerge.
Wow. Now, I'm not sure what form of government columba lives under, but here in the U.S of A, we do not live in a "democracy", we live in a Constitutional Republic. We have never lived in a "democracy", democracy does not exit except in the common parlance of those deluded enough to believe we live in one.

"Morally speaking", every form of government is prone to the "least common denominator" being thrust upon as, but his selection and rise to power is anything but "democratic", at least here in the U.S.

But, nice rant; one would almost think you know what you are talking about. Almost.

Keep chasing that "one world Church" led by the "reformed Catholic Church"; it makes for great theater.







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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  columba on Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:19 pm

MRyan wrote;
columba wrote:In practical terms this religious freedom could (and most likely will) result in the eradication of Christianity by stealth as opposed to open confrontation as was the means employed in days gone by.

Note well your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the subject post - nothing, except some vague rant against the Church for advocating "this religious freedom"?

Interesting obersvation, but my previous post which definitely did have something to do with the subject post you completely ignore while also ignoring the OP.

MRyan wrote:
columba wrote:All the more likely is this


All the more likely is what? The "eradication of Christianity" because the temporal power no long wields its power for the Church at the will of the priest?

Yes indeed. The eradication of Christianity in what were once strong Catholic nations will be unavoidable while the new teaching promotes tolerance, which usually means silence in the face of an anti-Christian take-over. It's already happening in the UK where the Muslim population continues to grow and have quite a representation in media control and government, not to mention the strong Jewish influence which continues to gain ground. and not to mention the highly contracepted nationals with their large sized 1 maybe 2 children families, while the non-Christians follow the Catholic way and continue to populate the land.
But Hey, These groups don't have an agenda. Right?

columba wrote: when we consider the politcal undertones apparent in most of the Vat II documents where it seems that democracy is the now accepted and preferred political system of the reformed Catholic Church.

"Political undertones" with "democracy" being the "accepted and preferred political system" of the "reformed Catholic Church".

How very rich, and a superb straw man.

That's the kind of response I would expect from someone who see's no correlation between the spiritual and the temporal. If you could assimilate in a more coherent way all the knowledge you gain from your study, you might start seeing the bigger picture. You see strawmen where you should be seeing real men, but I guess your so caught up in defending every last dot of post-conciliarism that you never take the time to stand back and look.

MRyan wrote:
So we went from "political undertones, and "it seems" to the Church "figuring out" that "democracy" is "less evil" than a "dictatorship or Monarchy", but columba is not sure how the Church "figured this out".

The Modernist Church hasn't really done any figuring out. It just seems to follow the latest trend. As long as the Euopean Parliament and the UN are happy, the Church is happy too. Heck, if they can just follow the leader in agenda-driven liturgical changes, why not follow agenda-driven political policies too? If they agree with any given political stance they shout it from the rooftops and pat the politicians on the back. If they don't agree they give a little whimper or just remain silent.

MRyan wrote:
Wow. Now, I'm not sure what form of government columba lives under, but here in the U.S of A, we do not live in a "democracy", we live in a Constitutional Republic. We have never lived in a "democracy", democracy does not exit except in the common parlance of those deluded enough to believe we live in one.

Regarding your Constitutional Republic. Yes, that's what it's meant to be, minus of course (more recently) a constitution.

MRyan wrote:
But, nice rant; one would almost think you know what you are talking about. Almost.

I know what I see. You only see what you think you already know.

MRyan wrote:#
Keep chasing that "one world Church" led by the "reformed Catholic Church"; it makes for great theater.

The "one world Church" is chasing me; but it ain't gonna catch me. How bout you?

Back to the topic at hand.
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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  MRyan on Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:34 pm

columba wrote:
That's the kind of response I would expect from someone who see's no correlation between the spiritual and the temporal.
Only someone as ignorant as you would say such an idiotic thing, and this sums up perfectly the level of discourse one can expect from you.

One logical fallacy after another, and so smug in your arrogance, cliches and meaningless platitudes.




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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  columba on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:42 pm

MRyan wrote:
columba wrote:
That's the kind of response I would expect from someone who see's no correlation between the spiritual and the temporal.
Only someone as ignorant as you would say such an idiotic thing, and this sums up perfectly the level of discourse one can expect from you.

One logical fallacy after another, and so smug in your arrogance, cliches and meaningless platitudes.


Mike,
I based my comments on what I see. If reporting my observations constitutes smug arrogance then I guess I'm smugly arrogant. Your posts are as subject to critical comment as mine but if you can't criticize the contents of a post then you shouldn't resort to substituting that with criticism of the poster. Your above post is meaningless and of no contribution at all to the subject of the thread which you have yet to offer any comment at all never mind a meaningful one.

Freedom of religion may not bother you now but it might do so when you find that the new modernist way has left you subject to the rule and law of another religion.
Not much you or I can do about it individually other than pray, but if I feel the new way is the wrong way and say as much, I am not out of sync with the consistant teaching of the Church on the matter. If you think I am, give it your best shot but stop your personal attacks and you might receive less of them yourself.
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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  columba on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:35 pm

The letters below are the product of religious libeterian theology.

Dear Lord, spare us from a "just and humane society" devoid of Christ.




Message from the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue to Buddhists for the “Feast of Vesakh/Hanamatsuri:



“Dear Buddhist Friends,

1. On behalf of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, I am happy to offer again, this year, heartfelt congratulations on the occasion of Vesakh/Hanamatsuri. It is my wish that this annual feast may bring joy and serenity to the hearts of all of you throughout the world.

2. Today, more and more in classrooms all over the world, students belonging to various religions and beliefs sit side-by-side, learning with one another and from one another. This diversity gives rise to challenges and sparks deeper reflection on the need to educate young people to respect and understand the religious beliefs and practices of others, to grow in knowledge of their own, to advance together as responsible human beings and to be ready to join hands with those of other religions to resolve conflicts and to promote friendship, justice, peace and authentic human development.

3. With His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, we acknowledge that true education can support an openness to the transcendent as well as to those around us. Where education is a reality there is an opportunity for dialogue, for inter-relatedness and for receptive listening to the other. In such an atmosphere, young people sense that they are appreciated for who they are and for what they are able to contribute; they learn how to grow in appreciation of their brothers and sisters whose beliefs and practices are different from their own. When that happens there will be joy in being persons of solidarity and compassion called to build a just and fraternal society giving thus hope for the future.

4. As Buddhists you pass on to young people the wisdom regarding the need to refrain from harming others and to live lives of generosity and compassion, a practice to be esteemed and recognized as a precious gift to society. This is one concrete way in which religion contributes to educating the young generation, sharing the responsibility and cooperating with others… Dear friends, we join our hearts to yours and pray that together we will be able to guide the young people by our example and teaching to become instruments of justice and peace. Let us share the common responsibility we have towards the present and future generations, nurturing them to be peaceful and to be peace makers.



Happy Vesakh/Hanamatsuri.

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran

President


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20120403_vesakh-2012_en.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PONTIFICAL COUNCIL
FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE

MESSAGE FOR THE FEAST OF DEEPAVALI 2011

CHRISTIANS AND HINDUS:
TOGETHER IN PROMOTING RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

Vatican City



Dear Hindu Friends,

1. The Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue is pleased to send you its cordial greetings as you celebrate Deepavali on 26 October of this year. May God, the source of all light, illumine your hearts, homes and communities for a life of peace and prosperity,

2. Maintaining our tradition of sharing a reflection on this occasion, we propose this year the theme of Religious Freedom. This subject is currently taking centre stage in many places, calling our attention to those members of our human family exposed to bias, prejudice, hate propaganda, discrimination and persecution on the basis of religious affiliation. Religious freedom is the answer to religiously motivated conflicts in many parts of the world. Amid the violence triggered by these conflicts, many desperately yearn for peaceful coexistence and integral human development.

3. Religious freedom is numbered among the fundamental human rights rooted in the dignity of the human person. When it is jeopardized or denied, all other human rights are endangered. Religious freedom necessarily includes immunity from coercion by any individual, group, community or institution. Though the exercise of this right entails the freedom of every person to profess, practise and propagate his or her religion or belief, in public or in private, alone or in a community, it also involves a serious obligation on the part of civil authorities, individuals and groups to respect the freedom of others. Moreover, it includes the freedom to change one's own religion.

4. When respected and promoted, religious freedom allows believers to be more enthusiastic about cooperating with their fellow citizens in the building of a just and humane social order. But wherever and whenever it is denied, suppressed or violated, "the growth of the authentic and lasting peace of the whole human family" is stifled and frustrated (cf. Pope Benedict XVI, Message for the World Day of Peace, 2011). There are many fields in which a specific contribution can be made to the common good, such as the defence of life and the dignity of the family, the sound education of children, honesty in daily conduct, and the preservation of natural resources, to name a few. Let us strive, then, to join hands in promoting religious freedom as our shared responsibility, by asking the leaders of nations never to disregard the religious dimension of the human person.

5. The very day after you celebrate Deepavali this year, many religious leaders from across the globe will join Pope Benedict XVI in a Pilgrimage to Assisi to renew the pledge made twenty-five years ago, under the leadership of Blessed John Paul II, to make religions channels of peace and harmony. We will be spiritually united with them, confident that believers will always be a blessing for the whole world.

We cordially wish you a joyful celebration of Deepavali.

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran
President

Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata
Secretary

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20111020_diwali_en.html
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Re: Dignitatis Humanae versus Exsurge Domine -- a solution?

Post  MRyan on Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:09 pm

columba wrote:
Your above post is meaningless and of no contribution at all to the subject of the thread which you have yet to offer any comment at all never mind a meaningful one.
Then make that two posts that are meaningless and of no contribution at all to the subject of the thread.

columba wrote:
Freedom of religion may not bother you now but it might do so when you find that the new modernist way has left you subject to the rule and law of another religion.
This is what I mean about such bombastic platitudes and sound bites that mean absolutely nothing, but sure make you feel good in taking the moral high ground by somehow managing to equate the fact that the Church no longer wields temporal power through the state (but only a moral power) with the Catholic’s Church’s evil promotion of “Freedom of religion” to where, coming to an evil modernist government near you, we will all be subject to the rule of law of another religion.

Funny, but I thought I was already subject to the religion of the state, which glorifies itself as a deity-like benevolent overlord controlling every aspect of our lives, and which demands filial devotion, worship and subservience from its subjects, and even the sacrifice of one’s children to its wars in spreading “democracy” and “religious freedom” everywhere. We even have our own “Fathers” (complete with "feast days") and saint-like figures whose images (e.g., statues) are venerated by millions.

And this is the "democracy" the Catholic Church promotes, isn't that right, Columba?

And of course, all of those un-democratic-like dictatorships in the world (where we have not yet imposed our will) where Christians are actually persecuted and killed can also be cured if the Church would call a Crusade, kill the infidel and anyone else who gets in the way, and install a Catholic Monarch where peace and the Gospel will prosper as the Church and the state act as one. It worked so well in the past, no reason we can’t do it again, right Columba?

What’s that, I exaggerate and have taken you out of “context"? Really? But you have not embellished at all your caricatures of “religious freedom” or committed any logical fallacies in your simplistic reductionism and not-so-veiled accusations of error against the Church?

And what are we to make of the calls to “religious freedom” from the likes of Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran who says such awful things when addressing Buddhists and Hindus, such as:

“Religious freedom is the answer to religiously motivated conflicts in many parts of the world. Amid the violence triggered by these conflicts, many desperately yearn for peaceful coexistence and integral human development.”
Ah, see, what he is REALLY promoting is “a ‘just and humane society’ devoid of Christ”, isn’t that right, Columba; I mean, you base your accusations only on what you “see”. And what you see is “religious libeterian theology”.

Oh my, such heresy from the Cardinal; for the answer is not religious freedom “devoid of Christ” (as if he actually said or even implied this) which seeks peaceful coexistence and religious tolerance in lands decimated by religiously motivated conflicts, the answer is conversion to the only true religion without which the true peace of Christ is impossible (the latter of which is quite true). The answer is suppression of pagan religions in counties with over one billion Hindus and Buddhists, and the installation of a Catholic Monarch who will impose Catholicism as the only authorized religion, and a state which shall wield the temporal sword of truth and justice. That also worked so well in the past in these same countries, right?

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, as head of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, said elsewhere that Christians “must never forgo a sense of boldness in proclaiming the Gospel”.

He added: “A lack of prudence and respect for others, leading to inappropriate means of proclamation of the Good News, unavoidably brings religious tensions, even violence and the loss of human life … The situation is requiring Christian communities to consider, in a new way, how best to proclaim the Christian faith.”

Now, if one were to ask me what I thought of the joint effort of the WCC, the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue and the World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) “to assuage sometimes violent tensions over proselytizing in non-Christian societies” by formulating the document “Christian Witness in a Multi-Religious World: Recommendations for Conduct"”, I would have to say that I do not disagree with the following assessment (http://mcduffee.wordpress.com/category/strewings/page/2/):

“Today a Christian group protects itself often by hiding its particularity, by speaking as the testimony of all good wills, by identifying itself with positions held in common, but announcing only the insignificant truths of every man.” Michel de Certeau, “How is Christianity Thinkable Today,” in The Postmodern God: A Theological Reader:

“If there were an award for seeking out the bare-minimum lowest common denominator of Christian morality, I would nominate the new ecumenical document, ‘Christian Witness in a Multi-Religious World: Recommendations for Conduct.’ But now I feel like I’ve just congratulated a healthy adult for tying his own shoes. The declaration that, from now on, we’ll try to avoid deception, coercion and bribery shouldn’t be cause for celebration.” From “Constantine is dead,” by Patheos blog author Fred Clark – Slacktivist: “Knock, breathe, shine and seek to mend” (6/29/2011), http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/06/29/constantine-is-dead
Nonetheless, this same Cardinal of the Catholic Church, whose visible presence is itself a witness to Christ, can say something in his message to Buddhists you cannot, Columba, and it is this:

With His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, we acknowledge that true education can support an openness to the transcendent as well as to those around us.
Not that you would ever advocate “an openness to the transcendent”, but you cannot witness to the fact of Christ’s true Vicar on earth, “His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI”, and the FACT of his visible Pontificate as itself serving as a witness to the truth of the Gospel and of the permanent visible institution of the One True Church of Christ, outside of which there is no salvation.

If the Cardinal fails to overtly witness to the truth of Christ crucified in messages of peace through religious tolerance and freedom directed to Hindus and Buddhists, neither do you, Columba, serve as a witness to the truth of the visible and divine institution of the Catholic Church. Sorry, that’s just the way “I see it”.

Yours is a religion of doubt: a doubtful pope, doubtful sacraments, doubtful apostolic succession, a doubtful Mass, and a doubtful visible universal Church of Christ; and you have no credibility whatsoever serving as an ambassador to the one true Church – a Church you cannot even find, let alone serve as a witness:

And what is this unity unless one person is placed in charge of the whole Church who protects it and joins all its members in the one profession of faith and unites them in the one bond of love and communion? … In the words of St. Leo, who continues speaking about the Holy See of Peter: ‘It is necessary that the Church throughout the world be united and cleave to the center of Catholic unity and ecclesiastical communion, so that whoever dares to depart from the unity of Peter might understand that he no longer shares in the divine mystery.’ St. Jerome adds: ‘Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is unholy. Those who were not in the ark of Noah perished in the flood.’ Just as he who does not gather with Christ, so he who does not gather with Christ's Vicar on earth, clearly scatters. How can someone who destroys the holy authority of the Vicar of Christ and who infringes on his rights gather with him?” (Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum Divinitus, 17 May 1835).

“If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church. … If the Church is a body, it must be an unbroken unity… But it is not enough that the Body of the Church should be an unbroken unity; it must also be something definite and perceptible to the senses […] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. … They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it” (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, nn. 13-14, 22, 41; 29 June 1943).
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