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Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

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Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Sat May 05, 2012 1:02 pm

(Stuttgart/Trier) The formalization of the union between the Holy See and the Society of St. Pius X, which has organized a pilgrimage to Trier and with that also wants to make a visible demonstration, comes ever closer. Meanwhile, Budestag Vice President Wolfgang Thierse, who dared to receive hand Communion from Pope Benedict XVI in Berlin, said in a KNA-interview taking the position of Cardinal Kurt Koch, that the "Vatican will not take back the Society of Saint Pius X". In the first place, this suggestion is solely an initiative of Thierses, who is repeating his own opinion Recently Father Franz Schmidberger, the Superior of the German District of the Society as also Father Niklaus Pfluger, the first assistant to the Superior General of the Society have shown themselves as positive toward the posibillity of a reconciliation with Rome.

Father Pfluger spoke on April 29th at a meeting of Actio Spes Unica in the German town of Hattersheim about this. "Unexpectedly Father Pfluger began to discuss the happenings of the last months till today. And he otherwise made known that this event had convinced Bishop Fellay to distance himself from the previous principles that distanced the Society from Rome," as it stated in the participant's report and how it will respond in the reconciliation offer of Pope Benedict XVI.

"There can be no practical agreement without doctrinal agreement", said Father Pflugger, expressing himself with the original negotiation maxim of the Society. It should become clear, however, "that Pope Benedict XVI. is very interested in a canonical solution for the Society, that he is ready, to conclude an agreement even if the controversial texts of the Vatican Council II and the New Mass are not recongized." Should the Society itself "however, with these new stipulations still refuse reunion, then they would face the prospect of possible excommunication", said Father Pfluger in recounting the meeting between Cardinal William Levada and the General Superior Fellay on March 16th 2012 in Rome.

http://www.eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2012/05/holy-father-ready-to-concede-societys.html

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  George Brenner on Sat May 05, 2012 1:31 pm


I do not like the word concede but that we should pray that the Holy Spirit will provide the graces for perfect closure in truth.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  columba on Sat May 05, 2012 2:11 pm

The following post is nicked from another Catholic forum:



Fr. Pfluger, member of the general council of the SSPX, gave a groundbreaking address for the Actio Spes Unica in Germany.

Here is a short article on the website of the Actio Spes Unica.
The talk can be downloaded, but it is two hours long and in German.

I have listened to the complete talk. It is the most comprehensive insight into the talks with Rome and the current status that was ever given.
Here are some points that Fr. Pfluger makes:
- When the doctrinal talks came to an end, it was clear that there was no agreement.
- The SSPX would not accept the doctrinal preamble.
- Now there seems to be a split in the Vatican between the pope and the Congregation for the doctrine of the faith. For example, on the evening before the "Ultimatum" was handed over to the SSPX, a source with direct connection to the pope told Bishop Fellay that this document would be coming and that he should not take it seriously. "The best you can do with that document is put it into your archives", Bishop Fellay was told.
- The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost. According to Fr. Pfluger "it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired" and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board.
- The pope is willing to give a canonical recognition to the SSPX that would give them complete independence from the Bishops and they will not be required to accept Vatican II or the New Mass. He is alone in this, but willing to push it through against enormous opposition in the Vatican.
- If they do not accept this, the entire SSPX could be excommunicated on the reasons of schism.
- Bishop Fellay feels that under these circumstances, as they are not required to accept anything against the Faith, he can not reject the offer, if they recognize the pope as pope, which has always been the position of the society.


Here are some additional stories that Fr. Pfluger told, regarding the changing climate in the Church:
- Someone in the Vatican told them, that as soon as they get recognition, they need to open a seminary in Rome and a center for critical studies on Vatican II.
- Someone in the Vatican, who is a Cardinal today, told them, when the Motu Proprio was released, that there would never be a solution to the crisis with the New Mass. But Rome cannot suppress the New Mass today, but possibly in the future.
- People in the Vatican have practically begged them to agree, because "we need you".
- A seminarian of a European diocesan seminary told them that every seminarian is his seminary wants the Old Mass.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Sat May 05, 2012 3:03 pm

The Holy Father hasn't "conceded" anything.


- The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost.
- The pope is willing to give a canonical recognition to the SSPX ... and they will not be required to accept Vatican II or the New Mass ...
- Bishop Fellay feels that under these circumstances, as they are not required to accept anything against the Faith
- Someone in the Vatican told them ...
- Someone in the Vatican, who is a Cardinal today ...
- People in the Vatican ...
- A seminarian of a European diocesan seminary told them ...
"Someone" needs to get a grip.

http://sspx.org/index.htm

In his May District Superior's Letter, Fr. Arnaud Rostand reminded all not to listen to the rumors being spread about the SSPX and Rome discussions.

More importantly, he called upon Americans to redouble their efforts for SSPX's Rosary Crusade and to make a novena to the Holy Ghost for Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Fellay.

Dear Friends and Benefactors,

A lot of rumors are being spread regarding the relations between the Roman authorities and the Society of St. Pius X. On this regard, I wish to simply remind the communiqué from the General House of the Society of April 18, 2012:

In a letter dated April 17, 2012, the Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X responded to the request for clarification that had been made to him on March 16 by Cardinal William Levada concerning the Doctrinal Preamble delivered on September 14, 2011. As the press release dated today from the Ecclesia Dei Commission indicates, the text of this response “will be examined by the dicastery (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) then submitted to the Holy Father for his judgment".

The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision.

Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for our Society. Because of his function and his 18 years of leadership in keeping the Faith and seeking the common good of the Church, we renew to him all our confidence, trust and respectful obedience in this difficult time. Our filial piety to him, as to the Sovereign Pontiff, pushes us to do more than usual in these unusual circumstances: we desire to bring to them the support of all your prayers.



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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Sat May 05, 2012 4:49 pm

MRyan wrote:The Holy Father hasn't "conceded" anything.


- The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost.
- The pope is willing to give a canonical recognition to the SSPX ... and they will not be required to accept Vatican II or the New Mass ...
- Bishop Fellay feels that under these circumstances, as they are not required to accept anything against the Faith
- Someone in the Vatican told them ...
- Someone in the Vatican, who is a Cardinal today ...
- People in the Vatican ...
- A seminarian of a European diocesan seminary told them ...
"Someone" needs to get a grip.

http://sspx.org/index.htm

In his May District Superior's Letter, Fr. Arnaud Rostand reminded all not to listen to the rumors being spread about the SSPX and Rome discussions.

More importantly, he called upon Americans to redouble their efforts for SSPX's Rosary Crusade and to make a novena to the Holy Ghost for Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Fellay.

Dear Friends and Benefactors,

A lot of rumors are being spread regarding the relations between the Roman authorities and the Society of St. Pius X. On this regard, I wish to simply remind the communiqué from the General House of the Society of April 18, 2012:

In a letter dated April 17, 2012, the Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X responded to the request for clarification that had been made to him on March 16 by Cardinal William Levada concerning the Doctrinal Preamble delivered on September 14, 2011. As the press release dated today from the Ecclesia Dei Commission indicates, the text of this response “will be examined by the dicastery (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) then submitted to the Holy Father for his judgment".

The matter is in the hands of the Holy Father and we are waiting for His decision.

Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for our Society. Because of his function and his 18 years of leadership in keeping the Faith and seeking the common good of the Church, we renew to him all our confidence, trust and respectful obedience in this difficult time. Our filial piety to him, as to the Sovereign Pontiff, pushes us to do more than usual in these unusual circumstances: we desire to bring to them the support of all your prayers.



I get it, you're some kind of Vatican insider and have sources in the CDF.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Sat May 05, 2012 4:50 pm

Sounds like you're losing it MRyan.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Sat May 05, 2012 4:52 pm

George Brenner wrote:
I do not like the word concede but that we should pray that the Holy Spirit will provide the graces for perfect closure in truth.

Concession is exactly what it was.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Sat May 05, 2012 5:52 pm

otremer6 wrote:
George Brenner wrote:
I do not like the word concede but that we should pray that the Holy Spirit will provide the graces for perfect closure in truth.

Concession is exactly what it was.
This from the Vatican Insider who has sources in the CDF.

Talk about "losing it".

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Sat May 05, 2012 6:42 pm

MRyan wrote:
otremer6 wrote:
George Brenner wrote:
I do not like the word concede but that we should pray that the Holy Spirit will provide the graces for perfect closure in truth.

Concession is exactly what it was.
This from the Vatican Insider who has sources in the CDF.

Talk about "losing it".

The contention that the Holy Father is eager to reach an agreement by making concessions was made by Father Pfluger of the Society of St. Pius X this week as he related what went on in the March discussions between the Society and Cardinal Levada of the CDF.

These aren't unsubstantiated rumors, but fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties.

„daß Papst Benedikt XVI. so sehr an einer kanonischen Lösung für die Bruderschaft interessiert ist, daß er bereit ist, mit ihr ein Abkommen zu schließen, auch wenn diese die strittigen Texte des II. Vatikanischen Konzils und die Neue Messe nicht anerkennt.“ Sollte sich die Bruderschaft „aber unter diesen Umständen immer noch einer Vereinbarung verweigern, wurde ihr eine mögliche erneute Exkommunikation in Aussicht gestellt“, so Pater Pfluger in Anspielung auf das Treffen zwischen William Kardinal Levada und dem Generaloberen Fellay am 16. März 2012 in Rom.

Reads:
"that Pope Benedict XVI. is so very interested in a canonical solution for the Society, that he is ready to conclude an agreement even if the controversial texts of the Vatican Council II and the New Mass are not recognized." Should the Society itself "however, with these new stipulations still refuse reunion, then they would face the prospect of possible excommunication", said Father Pfluger in recounting the meeting between Cardinal William Levada and the General Superior Fellay on March 16th 2012 in Rome.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Sat May 05, 2012 8:04 pm

otremer6 wrote:
MRyan wrote:
otremer6 wrote:
George Brenner wrote:
I do not like the word concede but that we should pray that the Holy Spirit will provide the graces for perfect closure in truth.

Concession is exactly what it was.
This from the Vatican Insider who has sources in the CDF.

Talk about "losing it".
The contention that the Holy Father is eager to reach an agreement by making concessions was made by Father Pfluger of the Society of St. Pius X this week as he related what went on in the March discussions between the Society and Cardinal Levada of the CDF.

These aren't unsubstantiated rumors, but fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties.
"[F]airly certain facts" such as:

- Someone in the Vatican told them ...
- Someone in the Vatican, who is a Cardinal today ...
- People in the Vatican ...
- A seminarian of a European diocesan seminary told them ...
"These aren't unsubstantiated rumors, but fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties."

If you say so; you're the one with the inside track.

otremer6 wrote:
Reads:
"that Pope Benedict XVI. is so very interested in a canonical solution for the Society, that he is ready to conclude an agreement even if the controversial texts of the Vatican Council II and the New Mass are not recognized." Should the Society itself "however, with these new stipulations still refuse reunion, then they would face the prospect of possible excommunication", said Father Pfluger in recounting the meeting between Cardinal William Levada and the General Superior Fellay on March 16th 2012 in Rome.
And what does "even if the controversial texts of the Vatican Council II and the New Mass are not recognized" mean, precisely?

Positively, it could very well mean that a canonical solution may be reached even before the Society has reconciled the controversial texts with tradition; with the discussions continuing after the SSPX is in full communion.

But that is NOT what one is led to believe with all the gossip mongering, unsubstantiated rumors (“someone said …” this and “someone said” that), and the comments attributed to Fr. Pfluger (posted by Columba) that say the Pope stands alone against the Vatican in wanting a reconciliation with the SSPX “at all cost” (after all, "it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board”), and thus, the SSPX “will not be required to accept Vatican II or the New Mass”; and “Bishop Fellay feels that under these circumstances, as they are not required to accept anything against the Faith [you know, like VCII and the New Mass], he can not reject the offer, if they recognize the pope as pope, which has always been the position of the society.”

Well, after all that, it comes down to "recognize the pope as pope". Now that's what I call progress.

The SSPX District Superior says don't listen to the rumor mongering, and I’m the one “losing it”?

Get a grip.



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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Sat May 05, 2012 9:08 pm

MRyan wrote:
otremer6 wrote:
MRyan wrote:
otremer6 wrote:
George Brenner wrote:
I do not like the word concede but that we should pray that the Holy Spirit will provide the graces for perfect closure in truth.

Concession is exactly what it was.
This from the Vatican Insider who has sources in the CDF.

Talk about "losing it".
The contention that the Holy Father is eager to reach an agreement by making concessions was made by Father Pfluger of the Society of St. Pius X this week as he related what went on in the March discussions between the Society and Cardinal Levada of the CDF.

These aren't unsubstantiated rumors, but fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties.
"[F]airly certain facts" such as:

- Someone in the Vatican told them ...
- Someone in the Vatican, who is a Cardinal today ...
- People in the Vatican ...
- A seminarian of a European diocesan seminary told them ...
"These aren't unsubstantiated rumors, but fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties."

If you say so; you're the one with the inside track.

otremer6 wrote:
Reads:
"that Pope Benedict XVI. is so very interested in a canonical solution for the Society, that he is ready to conclude an agreement even if the controversial texts of the Vatican Council II and the New Mass are not recognized." Should the Society itself "however, with these new stipulations still refuse reunion, then they would face the prospect of possible excommunication", said Father Pfluger in recounting the meeting between Cardinal William Levada and the General Superior Fellay on March 16th 2012 in Rome.
And what does "even if the controversial texts of the Vatican Council II and the New Mass are not recognized" mean, precisely?

Positively, it could very well mean that a canonical solution may be reached even before the Society has reconciled the controversial texts with tradition; with the discussions continuing after the SSPX is in full communion.

But that is NOT what one is led to believe with all the gossip mongering, unsubstantiated rumors (“someone said …” this and “someone said” that), and the comments attributed to Fr. Pfluger (posted by Columba) that say the Pope stands alone against the Vatican in wanting a reconciliation with the SSPX “at all cost” (after all, "it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board”), and thus, the SSPX “will not be required to accept Vatican II or the New Mass”; and “Bishop Fellay feels that under these circumstances, as they are not required to accept anything against the Faith [you know, like VCII and the New Mass], he can not reject the offer, if they recognize the pope as pope, which has always been the position of the society.”

Well, after all that, it comes down to "recognize the pope as pope". Now that's what I call progress.

The SSPX District Superior says don't listen to the rumor mongering, and I’m the one “losing it”?

Get a grip.



Once again:

Bishop Fellay's own Councilor from the negotiations with the CDF, Father Pfluger, said this, not I

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Sun May 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Oh I don't know, you're starting to sound even more disingenuous than usual. You're trying to trouble shoot what concessions the Holy Father is offering the Society. If he's willing to offer the Society the capability to criticize Vatican II statements at all, why would there be stipulations about which ones?

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Sun May 06, 2012 7:38 pm

otremer6 wrote:Oh I don't know, you're starting to sound even more disingenuous than usual. You're trying to trouble shoot what concessions the Holy Father is offering the Society. If he's willing to offer the Society the capability to criticize Vatican II statements at all, why would there be stipulations about which ones?
So I’m “disingenuous” (“not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does; insincere - false - devious - hollow-hearted”).

I’m not “trouble shooting” anything, Mr. “inside track”. My “disingenuous” instincts tell me you jumped on my post before you realized you really stepped in it, and now you are scrambling by engaging in ad hominems and by making the absolutely silly assertion that I have this objection to “which” Vatican II statements the Society can criticize, when you simply ignore the rumor mongering assertions that say Pope BXVI “absolutely has to get the SSPX on board … at all cost”, and thus, the SSPX “will not be required to accept Vatican II or the New Mass”; meaning, “Bishop Fellay feels that under these circumstances, as they are not required to accept anything against the Faith [you know, like VCII and the New Mass], he can not reject the offer, if they recognize the pope as pope, which has always been the position of the society.”

Look, if you want to defend this “someone said” this and “someone said” that twaddle as “fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties”, and not “unsubstantiated rumors”, go right ahead; but don’t say I didn’t warn you, and don’t pretend that the District Superior doesn’t cringe when he reads this rumor-mongering drivel that places the SSPX in the drivers seat as a desperate pope appears willing to do anything to get the SSPX on board, even allowing the SSPX to reject VCII and the New Mass for being “against the Faith”.

You “the pope is desperate” rumor mongers need to start paying attention:

Pope Paul VI, Letter to Ab Lefebvre, 1976: Nothing that was decreed in this Council, or in the reforms that We enacted in order to put the Council into effect, is opposed to what the two-thousand-year-old Tradition of the Church considers as fundamental and immutable. We are the guarantor of this, not in virtue of Our personal qualities but in virtue of the charge which the Lord has conferred upon Us as legitimate Successor of Peter, and in virtue of the special assistance that He has promised to Us as well as to Peter: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail" (Lk 22:32). The universal episcopate is guarantor with Us of this.”

Cardinal Ratzinger, Letter to Ab Lefebvre, 1983: "In the third paragraph you speak of 'statements or expressions of the Council that are contrary to the Magisterium of the Church.' Then you list three texts of the Council 'incompatible', according to you, with the Magisterium, adding even an 'etc.' …But you can not assert the incompatibility of the conciliar texts - which are magisterial texts - with the Magisterium and Tradition. You can say that personally, you do not see this compatibility, and to ask explanations of the Apostolic See. But if, on the contrary, you assert the impossibility of such an explanation, you ARE DEPARTING DEEPLY from the fundamental structure of the Catholic faith; the of faith of the Church which you are claiming to defend at the end of your letter, the faith you were taught during your childhood and in the Eternal City."

Pope Benedict XVI (May 2009): "The Second Vatican Council, desiring to pass on, pure and integral, the doctrine on the Church that had developed in the course of 2,000 years, gave the Church a 'more deeply considered definition' …As I was able to explain in my Discourse to the Roman Curia on 22 December 2005, an interpretative current, claiming to refer to a presumed 'spirit of the Council', sought to establish a 'discontinuity' and even to distinguish between the Church before and the Church after the Councilthe word and spirit of the Council which did not desire a rupture, another Church, but rather a true and deep renewal in the continuity of the one subject Church which grows in time and develops but always remains identical.
Yeah, I'm being "disingenuous" by telling folks to ignore the rumor that says the Pope "absolutely has to get the SSPX on board … at all cost", and to ignore the rumors about the "costs" he is purportedly willing to concede that are a complete contradiction to what is absolutely NON-NEGOTIABLE.

I'll leave you to your "factual" rumor mongering ... should be fun to watch when the real fun begins.









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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Mon May 07, 2012 12:54 am

It's not a rumor, it's what Father Pfluger said, but Father Pfluger never said, "at all costs", that's you misrepresenting what was said. What he really said was that the Holy Father was eager to close the deal.



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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Mon May 07, 2012 8:15 am

otremer6 wrote:It's not a rumor, it's what Father Pfluger said, but Father Pfluger never said, "at all costs", that's you misrepresenting what was said. What he really said was that the Holy Father was eager to close the deal.
Let's see whose being "disingenuous":

Here are some points that Fr. Pfluger makes:

- The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost. According to Fr. Pfluger "it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired" and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board.
I'm not "misrepresenting" anything.

Here's the rest of the rumor-mongering "facts":

columba wrote:The following post is nicked from another Catholic forum:

Fr. Pfluger, member of the general council of the SSPX, gave a groundbreaking address for the Actio Spes Unica in Germany.

Here is a short article on the website of the Actio Spes Unica.
The talk can be downloaded, but it is two hours long and in German.

I have listened to the complete talk. It is the most comprehensive insight into the talks with Rome and the current status that was ever given.
Here are some points that Fr. Pfluger makes:

- When the doctrinal talks came to an end, it was clear that there was no agreement.
- The SSPX would not accept the doctrinal preamble.
- Now there seems to be a split in the Vatican between the pope and the Congregation for the doctrine of the faith. For example, on the evening before the "Ultimatum" was handed over to the SSPX, [color]a source with direct connection to the pope told Bishop Fellay that this document would be coming and that he should not take it seriously[/color]. "The best you can do with that document is put it into your archives", Bishop Fellay was told.
- The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost. According to Fr. Pfluger "it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired" and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board.
- The pope is willing to give a canonical recognition to the SSPX that would give them complete independence from the Bishops and [color]they will not be required to accept Vatican II or the New Mass. He is alone in this, but willing to push it through against enormous opposition in the Vatican[/color].
- If they do not accept this, the entire SSPX could be excommunicated on the reasons of schism.
- Bishop Fellay feels that under these circumstances, as they are not required to accept anything against the Faith, he can not reject the offer, if they recognize the pope as pope, which has always been the position of the society.

Here are some additional stories that Fr. Pfluger told, regarding the changing climate in the Church:

- Someone in the Vatican told them, that as soon as they get recognition, they need to open a seminary in Rome and a center for critical studies on Vatican II.
- Someone in the Vatican, who is a Cardinal today, told them, when the Motu Proprio was released, that there would never be a solution to the crisis with the New Mass. But Rome cannot suppress the New Mass today, but possibly in the future.
- People in the Vatican have practically begged them to agree, because "we need you".
- A seminarian of a European diocesan seminary told them that every seminarian is his seminary wants the Old Mass.
Oh no, "These aren't unsubstantiated rumors, but fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties."

Sure they are!



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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Mon May 07, 2012 8:36 am

Here' one of my favorites from the "fairly certain facts related by the concerned parties":

- Now there seems to be a split in the Vatican between the pope and the Congregation for the doctrine of the faith. For example, on the evening before the "Ultimatum" was handed over to the SSPX, a source with direct connection to the pope told Bishop Fellay that this document would be coming and that he should not take it seriously. "The best you can do with that document is put it into your archives", Bishop Fellay was told.
Wow, what a scoop!

But there I go again being "disingenuous" by "misrepresenting" the facts by citing the so-called "facts" as they are reported - verbatim.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  simple Faith on Mon May 07, 2012 9:33 am

I hope there is a reconciliation soon. Then I can go to a SSPX priest for Mass and go to a Novus Ordo priest for confession (LOL)


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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Mon May 07, 2012 10:27 am

If you're going to "warn folks" with your public service, at least have the courtesy to accurately quote those you're trying to warn people about.

Nobody said the Holy Father was going to concede "at all costs" only that he was going to concede.

You maintain it's a rumor, and then cite an SSPX source warning of rumors. I'm citing an SSPX source.

Facts are persistent things.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Mon May 07, 2012 10:59 am

otremer6 wrote:If you're going to "warn folks" with your public service, at least have the courtesy to accurately quote those you're trying to warn people about.

Nobody said the Holy Father was going to concede "at all costs" only that he was going to concede.

You maintain it's a rumor, and then cite an SSPX source warning of rumors. I'm citing an SSPX source.

Facts are persistent things.
Your "spin" is as disingenuous as your "facts".

You said "It's not a rumor, it's what Father Pfluger said, but Father Pfluger never said, "at all costs", that's you misrepresenting what was said. What he really said was that the Holy Father was eager to close the deal."

It was reported that Fr. Pfluger indicated that "The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost. According to Fr. Pfluger 'it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired' and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board".

If anyone is "misrepresenting" what Fr. Pfluger actually said, it is the person reporting the "facts". And it is the same type of "facts" that misrepresent the Holy Father's position, and lead others to believe that the Pope is desperate, that he stands alone in the Vatican, even agaisnt his CDF; that "a source with direct connection to the pope told Bishop Fellay" to "ignore" the so-called "Ultimatum", and that the SSPX will not have to accept VCII or the New Mass since they are not required to have to accept anything "against the Faith".

Have the "courtesy" of recognizing that it has been reported that "The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost", and stop denying it by accusing me of "misrepresenting" was was actually "reported" in columba's post.

Your rumor-mongering, denial and spinning are quite the spectacle.










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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Mon May 07, 2012 11:06 am

MRyan Writes:
If anyone is "misrepresenting" what Fr. Pfluger actually said, it is the person reporting the "facts". And it is the same type of "facts" that misrepresent the Holy Father's position, and lead others to believe that the Pope is desperate, that he stands alone in the Vatican, even agaisnt his CDF; that "a source with direct connection to the pope told Bishop Fellay" to "ignore" the so-called "Ultimatum", and that the SSPX will not have to accept VCII or the New Mass since they are not required to have to accept anything "against the Faith".

That's entirely the interpolation which has spilled forth from your fertile mind.

I never once said or even suggested the Holy Father was "desperate".

I think you're confusing what I've presented with the speculations of others, inclusing yourself.

Kindly, cease and desist from misrepresenting [attributing things I haven't said to me] and insulting [accusing me of spreading rumors] me.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Mon May 07, 2012 12:11 pm

otremer6 wrote:MRyan Writes:
If anyone is "misrepresenting" what Fr. Pfluger actually said, it is the person reporting the "facts". And it is the same type of "facts" that misrepresent the Holy Father's position, and lead others to believe that the Pope is desperate, that he stands alone in the Vatican, even agaisnt his CDF; that "a source with direct connection to the pope told Bishop Fellay" to "ignore" the so-called "Ultimatum", and that the SSPX will not have to accept VCII or the New Mass since they are not required to have to accept anything "against the Faith".

That's entirely the interpolation which has spilled forth from your fertile mind.

I never once said or even suggested the Holy Father was "desperate".

I think you're confusing what I've presented with the speculations of others, inclusing yourself.

Kindly, cease and desist from misrepresenting [attributing things I haven't said to me] and insulting [accusing me of spreading rumors] me.
You want to play games with me by calling me "disingenuous" and by accusing me of "misrepresenting" the facts of what was reported on this very thread, go right ahead; but I am not going to sit back and let you get away with it when we both know what is really going on.

Deal with it:

You said "It's not a rumor, it's what Father Pfluger said, but Father Pfluger never said, "at all costs", that's you misrepresenting what was said. What he really said was that the Holy Father was eager to close the deal."

It was reported that Fr. Pfluger indicated that "The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost. According to Fr. Pfluger 'it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired' and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board".
Who reported that Fr. Pfluger indicated that "The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost"; me, or the person “from another Catholic forum” who said “Here are some points that Fr. Pfluger makes: …”?

Get it, this "interpolation" did NOT spill forth from my "fertile mind", it is the exact words of that "someone else" who also reported the "facts".

And when I objected to this type of rumor-mongering by saying “The Holy Father hasn't ‘conceded’ anything”, and cited the “someone said” and other rumors from that “other person”, you decided to take this as an affront against yourself, and the insults quickly followed with the accusation that I am the one who “misrepresented” what Fr. Pfluger said, when I did no such thing.

Since you simply cannot admit that my objection was a protest against the unsubstantiated rumor-mongering taken directly from columba’s post, you would rather spin this as MY “disingenuous misrepresentation” of what Fr. Pfluger said, while you said not a word against the actual source of the rumor-mongering, all the while defending your initial post AS IF that is what I was addressing.

My, don't we have an inflated sense of one's self-importance.

Go pound sand, Otremer6, and stop misrepresenting what I say.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Mon May 07, 2012 1:35 pm

MRyan wrote:
otremer6 wrote:MRyan Writes:
If anyone is "misrepresenting" what Fr. Pfluger actually said, it is the person reporting the "facts". And it is the same type of "facts" that misrepresent the Holy Father's position, and lead others to believe that the Pope is desperate, that he stands alone in the Vatican, even agaisnt his CDF; that "a source with direct connection to the pope told Bishop Fellay" to "ignore" the so-called "Ultimatum", and that the SSPX will not have to accept VCII or the New Mass since they are not required to have to accept anything "against the Faith".

That's entirely the interpolation which has spilled forth from your fertile mind.

I never once said or even suggested the Holy Father was "desperate".

I think you're confusing what I've presented with the speculations of others, inclusing yourself.

Kindly, cease and desist from misrepresenting [attributing things I haven't said to me] and insulting [accusing me of spreading rumors] me.
You want to play games
There you go again. If your case is so strong, why do you have to resort to accusing people of bad faith all the time. If you can't be bothered with the facts, you should probably refrain from commenting at all, because most of what you're doing is in fact misrepresenting what I'm saying, accusing me of things I haven't done and engaging in your own ill-advised speculations on my motivations.

Perhaps these matters would be best left to people with stronger cognitive and expressive abillities than you yourself at present possess.

Thanks.
with me by calling me "disingenuous" and by accusing me of "misrepresenting" the facts of what was reported on this very thread, go right ahead; but I am not going to sit back and let you get away with it when we both know what is really going on.

Deal with it:

You said "It's not a rumor, it's what Father Pfluger said, but Father Pfluger never said, "at all costs", that's you misrepresenting what was said. What he really said was that the Holy Father was eager to close the deal."

It was reported that Fr. Pfluger indicated that "The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost. According to Fr. Pfluger 'it is an open secret in Rome that the pope is getting older and more tired' and he feels that he absolutely has to get the SSPX on board".
Who reported that Fr. Pfluger indicated that "The pope wants a reconciliation with the SSPX at all cost"; me, or the person “from another Catholic forum” who said “Here are some points that Fr. Pfluger makes: …”?

Get it, this "interpolation" did NOT spill forth from my "fertile mind", it is the exact words of that "someone else" who also reported the "facts".

And when I objected to this type of rumor-mongering by saying “The Holy Father hasn't ‘conceded’ anything”, and cited the “someone said” and other rumors from that “other person”, you decided to take this as an affront against yourself, and the insults quickly followed with the accusation that I am the one who “misrepresented” what Fr. Pfluger said, when I did no such thing.

Since you simply cannot admit that my objection was a protest against the unsubstantiated rumor-mongering taken directly from columba’s post, you would rather spin this as MY “disingenuous misrepresentation” of what Fr. Pfluger said, while you said not a word against the actual source of the rumor-mongering, all the while defending your initial post AS IF that is what I was addressing.

My, don't we have an inflated sense of one's self-importance.

Go pound sand, Otremer6, and stop misrepresenting what I say.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  otremer6 on Mon May 07, 2012 1:49 pm


And when I objected to this type of rumor-mongering by saying “The Holy Father hasn't ‘conceded’ anything”, [ and cited the “someone said” and other rumors from that “other person”, you decided to take this as an affront against yourself, and the insults quickly followed with the accusation that I am the one who “misrepresented” what Fr. Pfluger said, when I did no such thing.

Nope, you're truncating the citation of Father Pfluger which stated that the Holy Father is willing to concede these points of doctrine.


Since you simply cannot admit that my objection was a protest against the unsubstantiated rumor-mongering taken directly from columba’s post,
I can admit that you're throwing it all into the same pot and confusing things, deliberately or otherwise, yes.
you would rather spin this as MY “disingenuous misrepresentation” of what Fr. Pfluger said, while you said not a word against the actual source of the rumor-mongering, all the while defending your initial post AS IF that is what I was addressing.

Whatever you say, Mike. Your objection to the Holy Father making concessions is an empty one.

I guess you'll just have to wait and see now as to whether it's correct, but I'm sure that when it turns out to have been accurate, we'll not hear anything of it, at least not from you.


My, don't we have an inflated sense of one's self-importance.

Go pound sand, Otremer6, and stop misrepresenting what I say.

Stop lying about what people say, it'll be a lot easier for you to at least feign good will when people wonder why you're on about whatever it is you're on about.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

Post  MRyan on Mon May 07, 2012 6:10 pm

So now I am a liar for telling the truth.

I could refute every one of your points and demonstrate who is actually "lying", but we've come to the end - the truth does not really matter, only your very selective, disingenuous and head-in-the-sand version of the truth matters.

Your comment about being proved "correct" with the "concessions" is a joke; and as factual as was the SSPX's insistence that the lifting of the excommunications would be a "concession" recognizing that Pope JPII made a mistake, and that the excommunications were null and void from the start. Total bull.

I'm sure they will spin the so-called "concessions" in the same manner; and your fellow-traveling rumor mongers can then gloat about how you were right - sure, the Pope is ready to cave by allowing the SSPX to suggest that they do not have to accept VCII or the New Mass - after all, they do NOT have to accept anything that is against the Faith.

I put a very positive spin on how your report could be interpreted, which would allow the discussions to continue after a reconciliation ... but all you could do is mock me.

I don't appreciate being accused of lying, and if we were ever to meet face to face, I can almost guarantee that you would retract those words.

As it is, I want nothing more to do with you.

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Re: Holy Father Willing to Concede on Two Points for SSPX

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