The SSPX has a trump card and its time to play it.

Start making simple objective statements.

1. We don’t know anyone dead and saved in 2012.

2. We cannot know the dead saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience (Lumen Gentium 16) etc.

3. So Lumen Gentiuem 16, Vatican Council II does not contradict Ad Gentes 7 or the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

4. Since Ad Gentes 7 is in agreement with extra ecclesiam nulla salus it has to be in agreement with the Syllabus of Errors.

5. Vatican Council II is in accord with extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors and there are no exceptions of the visible dead i.e knowing the dead saved in 2012 .

6. Vatican Council II is a traditional Council just like the Council of Trent.

7. There is no theological basis for the new ecumenism.It’s foundation is the Richard Cushing Error, of being able to see the dead saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.

8. This Cushing Error is the basis of the theology of religions and the ecclesiology of communion.

9. Those who affirm Vatican Council II with the Cushing Error of being able to see the dead alive, who are supposed to be exceptions to the defined dogma, are in heresy. They are contradicting the dogma on exclusive salvation, Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the magisterial documents of Pope John Paul II.(Dominus Iesus 20, Redemptoris Missio 55 etc).

10. Religious in public heresy are not permitted, according to Canon Law, to offer Holy Mass, the Novus Ordo Mass or the Traditional Latin Mass.

Canonically a Catholic, SSPX or non SSPX , cannot be expected to accept Vatican Council II with an irrational premise.Every good Catholic must reject this version of the Council.

-Lionel Andrades

Lionel, if the SSPX has a “trump card”, you’re not holding it.

Lionel wrote: Start making simple objective statements.

1. We don’t know anyone dead and saved in 2012.

Correct, neither Baptized nor non-baptized.

2. We cannot know the dead saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience (Lumen Gentium 16) etc.

And we cannot know the dead saved in right faith and a good conscience.

3. So Lumen Gentiuem 16, Vatican Council II does not contradict Ad Gentes 7 or the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Correct, for it has NOTHING to do with “visible salvation in invincible ignorance” or with “dead men walking”, two of the most inane concepts this side of "the remission of sins without sanctification".

4. Since Ad Gentes 7 is in agreement with extra ecclesiam nulla salus it has to be in agreement with the Syllabus of Errors.

Correct, there is no contradiction in matters of faith or irreformable morals/disciplines.

5. Vatican Council II is in accord with extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors and there are no exceptions of the visible dead i.e knowing the dead saved in 2012.

A ridiculous straw-man as there is no such “implication” of “the visible dead i.e knowing the dead saved in 2012”. Please.

6. Vatican Council II is a traditional Council just like the Council of Trent.

In doctrine, it certainly is, while it did develop certain points of doctrine, and engaged in a rather “nontraditional” pastoral approach.

7. There is no theological basis for the new ecumenism. It’s foundation is the Richard Cushing Error, of being able to see the dead saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.

Oh, stop it. The end objective of ecumenism remains the same as always, while engaging in a more open and non-confrontational approach which recognizes the elements of good that exists in other sects and traditions.

8. This Cushing Error is the basis of the theology of religions and the ecclesiology of communion.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

9. Those who affirm Vatican Council II with the Cushing Error of being able to see the dead alive, who are supposed to be exceptions to the defined dogma, are in heresy. They are contradicting the dogma on exclusive salvation, Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the magisterial documents of Pope John Paul II.(Dominus Iesus 20, Redemptoris Missio 55 etc).

I accept VCII (all of it) “and the magisterial documents of Pope John Paul II. (Dominus Iesus 20, Redemptoris Missio 55 etc)”, but I do not see the living dead, and I do not believe in “exceptions” to the salvation dogmas. So I guess I am not in “heresy”! Whew.

10. Religious in public heresy are not permitted, according to Canon Law, to offer Holy Mass, the Novus Ordo Mass or the Traditional Latin Mass.

And your point is?

And every Mass said outside the jurisdiction of the Pope and his appointed bishops is at least illicit, and easily schismatic. Btw, the only authority who can make such judgments as to who can and cannot offer Mass in his diocese is the local Ordinary who has immediate jurisdiction, and not arm-chair experts in canon-law.

Canonically a Catholic, SSPX or non SSPX , cannot be expected to accept Vatican Council II with an irrational premise. Every good Catholic must reject this version of the Council.

No one can be expected to accept your irrational premise that accuses others of seeing dead men walking and visible salvation in invincible ignorance.

But you do like to peddle it, no?

3. So Lumen Gentiuem 16, Vatican Council II does not contradict Ad Gentes 7 or the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

MRyan
Correct, for it has NOTHING to do with “visible salvation in invincible ignorance” or with “dead men walking”, two of the most inane concepts this side of "the remission of sins without sanctification".

Lionel
For quite a few years on this forum Vatican Council II was supposed to be an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is the same problem being faced by the SSPX. This is the same error made by Archbishop Augustine Di Noia in an interview with the National Catholic Register.He assumed also, that implicit salvation was explicit.
Since they assumed that there were dead men walking and visible and saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire theologically the battle would continue if the baptism of desire resulted in justification or salvation.