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Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:36 am by Lionel L. Andrades

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» When Card. Ladaria and Bp Fellay meet a non Catholic they know he or she is oriented to Hell because the Church lic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit teaches this
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» No denial from Cardinal Ladaria and Bishop Fellay : two interpretations of Vatican Council II and theirs is the irrational one
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» Ask Cardinal Ladaria a few questions when you meet him
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:42 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Now it is the time for cardinals Kasper and Marx to reject Vatican Council II
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» Schism over Vatican Council II ?
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:30 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» SSPX recognises that Abp.Lefebvre's writings are obsolete : seminaries have to make the correction
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» Polish traditionalists handicapped : Archbishop Lefebvre made a mistake
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:20 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney in the USA when they interpret Vatican Council II with the irrational premise deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Bishop Robert J.McManus and Brother Thomas Augustine MICM,Superior,St.Benedict Center,Still River,MA, interpret Vatican Council II with the 'possibilites are exceptions' error
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:47 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» SSPX must be aware of the deception of Abp.Guido Pozzo and confront it
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:57 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Two popes must ask all Catholics to affirm Vatican Council II (premise-free) as they do
Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:16 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary Still River Ma., could lose canomical status because of Feeneyism
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»  Traditionalists oppose Pope Francis on morals but give him a pass on salvation
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:06 am by Lionel L. Andrades


Ecclesia Dei can work out the reconciliation of the SSPX in three simple steps

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Ecclesia Dei can work out the reconciliation of the SSPX in three simple steps

Post  Lionel Andrades on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:02 pm

1.
Agree with the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) that we do not know any case on earth in 2013 saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, elements of sanctification,seeds of the word, imperfect communion with the Church,good and holy people in non Catholic religions and other forms of implicit salvation.

Then both of you issue a statement on this agreement.

2.
At a following meeting with Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior of the SSPX, or his repesentative agree that the above mention cases of implicit salvation, not being visible to us; not being known to us, does not contradict Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.

3.
Finally at the third meeting agree that implicit salvation referred to in Vatican Council II does not contradict athe thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

So there is nothing in Vatican Council II which contradicts the SSPX traditional position on other religions.

Once there is an agreement on the issue of other religions, and this fact is known world wide,it will be easier to accept also that the Council is in agreement with the traditional teaching on ecumenism and religious liberty.

Two priests of the SSPX at the SSPX chapel of St.Catherine of Siena, Rome have indicated that Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus since there is no implicit salvation known to us.There has also been no denial from the Superior of the SSPX in Albano, Italy, Father.Pierpaolo Petrucci , to this statement available on the internet.Neither has there been a denial from the SSPX Superior in the USA and the Headquarters in Switzerland after formal letters were sent to them, inquiring, about their position on this issue.

Lionel Andrades

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Re: Ecclesia Dei can work out the reconciliation of the SSPX in three simple steps

Post  MRyan on Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:12 pm

Concerning a proposed road to reconciliation for the SSPX through the facilitation of the Ecclesia Dei "in three simple steps", Lionel wrote:

1. Agree with the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) that we do not know any case on earth in 2013 saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, elements of sanctification,seeds of the word, imperfect communion with the Church, good and holy people in non Catholic religions and other forms of implicit salvation.
The SSPX can also agree that we do not know any case on earth in 2013 of any adult visibly saved through explicit faith, water baptism, visible sanctification, fullness of the word and perfect communion with the Church; neither do we know of any good and holy people in non-Catholic religions who are visibly or invisibly saved in invincible ignorance. We know of no visibly saved “dead men walking”.

2. At a following meeting with Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior of the SSPX, or his repesentative agree that the above mention cases of implicit salvation, not being visible to us; not being known to us, does not contradict Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.
At a following meeting with Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior of the SSPX, or his representative, all can agree that the above mentioned cases of explicit or implicit desire, the sanctifying/bonding salvific effects of which are neither visibly nor infallibly known to us, do not contradict Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.

3. Finally at the third meeting agree that implicit salvation referred to in Vatican Council II does not contradict the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Finally at the third meeting all can agree that Vatican Council II refers neither to “implicit visible salvation" nor "explicit visible salvation” nor “dead men walking”, but only to both the implicit and explicit desire for Baptism and both to formal and informal entry into the Church, none of which contradicts the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

So there is nothing in Vatican Council II which contradicts the SSPX traditional position on other religions.
There is nothing in VCII that contradicts immutable tradition, matters of Faith or irreformable morals; however, the SSPX falsely accuses VCII of erring on a matter of faith when it teaches that:

separated Churches and communities … though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church (Decree on Ecumenism, no. 3).”
When the SSPX understands this teaching as the Church understands it, progress towards reconciliation can proceed.
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MRyan

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Re: Ecclesia Dei can work out the reconciliation of the SSPX in three simple steps

Post  MRyan on Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:41 pm

Lionel wrote:

... we do not know any case on earth in 2013 saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, elements of sanctification,seeds of the word, imperfect communion with the Church, good and holy people in non Catholic religions and other forms of implicit salvation.
One more time, please show us even one adult, living or dead, saved in 2013 through explicit supernatural faith, water baptism, visible sanctification, fulness of the word, and perfect communion with the Church.
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Re: Ecclesia Dei can work out the reconciliation of the SSPX in three simple steps

Post  Lionel Andrades on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:42 am

Lionel
... we do not know any case on earth in 2013 saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, elements of sanctification,seeds of the word, imperfect communion with the Church, good and holy people in non Catholic religions and other forms of implicit salvation.

MRyan
One more time, please show us even one adult, living or dead, saved in 2013 through explicit supernatural faith, water baptism, visible sanctification, fulness of the word, and perfect communion with the Church.

Lionel
One more time... we do not know any case on earth in 2013 saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, elements of sanctification,seeds of the word, imperfect communion with the Church, good and holy people in non Catholic religions and other forms of implicit salvation.

Since these cases are known only to God and we cannot see any such adult they are not exceptions to the dogma which says all need to convert for salvation .So they are not exceptions to the SSPX position on other religions and ecumenism.

MRyan
The SSPX can also agree that we do not know any case on earth in 2013 of any adult visibly saved through explicit faith, water baptism, visible sanctification, fullness of the word and perfect communion with the Church; neither do we know of any good and holy people in non-Catholic religions who are visibly or invisibly saved in invincible ignorance. We know of no visibly saved “dead men walking”.

Lionel
Yes.

MRyan
At a following meeting with Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior of the SSPX, or his representative, all can agree that the above mentioned cases of explicit or implicit desire,

Lionel:
There are no cases of explicit implicit desire.

the sanctifying/bonding salvific effects of which are neither visibly nor infallibly known to us,

Lionel
They are accepted in principle. Though not visible to us.
'Infallibly known'?

MRyan
do not contradict Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.

Lionel:
Yes.

Mryan
Finally at the third meeting all can agree that Vatican Council II refers neither to “implicit visible salvation"

Lionel:
Vatican Council II refers to implicit salvation. For example being saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience (LG 16) etc.

MRyan
nor "explicit visible salvation” nor “dead men walking”,

Lionel
Yes Vatican Council II does not refer to "explicit visible salvation" nor "dead men walking".

MRyan:
but only to both the implicit and explicit desire for Baptism

Lionel:
It refers to those saved and these cases are always implicit for us.
If a Catechuman has asked for explicit baptism of water and dies before he receives it and is saved it would be known only to God. His salvation would be explicit only for God.

MRyan
and both to formal and informal entry into the Church, none of which contradicts the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Lionel:
Yes formal or informal enter into the Church does not not contradict the dogma.

Ad Gentes 7 refers to formal entry into the Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
Lumen Gentium 16 refers to those saved in invincible ignorance etc and who are unknown to us.

MRyan
There is nothing in VCII that contradicts immutable tradition, matters of Faith or irreformable morals; however, the SSPX falsely accuses VCII of erring on a matter of faith when it teaches that:

separated Churches and communities … though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church (Decree on Ecumenism, no. 3).”


Lionel:
The passage is saying that members of 'separated Churches and communities' can be saved.

Yes in principle.
This passage does not contradict Ad Gentes 7 or the dogma on salvation since we do not know any of these cases in 2013. So they are not explicit exceptions. Defacto we do not know any such case.

MRyan
For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church

Lionel:
Yes in principle this is a possibility. These cases would be known only to God.So they are not exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 or extra ecclesiamn nulla salus.

MRyan
When the SSPX understands this teaching as the Church understands it, progress towards reconciliation can proceed.

Lionel
When the SSPX and Ecclesia Dei do not mix up implcit and explicit, de jure and defacto, in theory and in practice it will help reconciliation.







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Re: Ecclesia Dei can work out the reconciliation of the SSPX in three simple steps

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