Baptism of Desire cannot be a visible exception to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, since we cannot see the dead - Cantarella

Lionel Andrades Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:09 am

Baptism of Desire cannot be a visible exception to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, since we cannot see the dead - Cantarella Linkedin-endorse-day

Baptism of Desire cannot be a visible exception to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, since we cannot see the dead - Cantarella, CathInfo traditional forum

Jehanne, a friend, has begun a thread on the forum CathInfo titled For Lionel, Is Baptism of Desire a visible exception to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus?

I was happy to see that one person, Cantarella understood what I am saying and agrees with me.She saw the only rational option.This is the beauty of the Catholic Faith. It is like mathematical precision and I love the way things fall into place.Reason complements faith.

Jehanne:
1) Someone who dies without the character of Baptism but in a state of sanctifying grace is a "visible exception" to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.
Lionel:
No!
This is a hypothetical case and so cannot be an explicit exception to Extra Eccleisam Nulla Salus (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus).

2) Someone who dies without the character of Baptism but in a state of sanctifying grace is not a "visible exception" to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.
Lionel:
It is a hypothetical case and is not personally known, or visibly seen in 2014. So it cannot be an exception to all needing Sacramental Baptism in 2014 for salvation. We cannot meet a hypothetical case in daily life. The persons saved with the baptism of desire are known only to God.

3) All salvation is invisible, at least in an absolute sense, except, perhaps, for those whom the Church has canonized. While the living members of the Church are visible, those who are truly in a state of grace are invisible, that is, we cannot know, in an absolute sense, who they are or even if we are in that group or not. All that we can have is moral certainty, and even assurance, if we receive the Sacraments fruitfully.
Lionel:
Even those whom the Church has canonised are not physically visible to us on earth.We accept them as saints in faith. They are not exceptions to all needing 'faith and baptism' in 2014 for salvation.Possibilities accepted in faith are not known, objective, visible in the flesh on earth, exceptions to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This would be irrational reasoning.
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Cantarella:
Baptism of Desire cannot be a visible exception to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, since we cannot see the dead.
Therefore, what it has been revealed to us is that all are required to formally enter into the Catholic Church for salvation. No exceptions.
That much we know.
Lionel:
I agree with her 100%.
She is thinking clearly.
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Jehanne:
We have the Roman Martyrology, though, which seems to imply that individuals ended their lives without sacramental Baptism and yet in a state of grace:
Lionel:
In 2014 we do not know any one who is declared a martyr as such, or who is going to be declared a martyr.So the baptism of blood is not an explicit exception to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in 2014. I cannot meet someone on the streets of Rome whom I know is going to be a martyr and so does not have to enter the Catholic Church formally, for salvation.
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Ladislaus.
The Catholic Church is visible by definition; consequently, there's no such thing as "invisible" salvation. That's heretical.
Lionel.
All those who are saved and are now in Heaven are not physically visible to us on earth. This is the experience of most people. It is common knowledge.
Also, as soon as you start speaking of "exceptions", you reduce Baptism to necessary by necessity of precept.
Lionel:
Necessity of means and necessity of precept are theological concepts. They are theoretical, hypothetical cases for us human beings.It is God only who can judge who has necessity of precept and means.
We do not know of a single case as such on earth. So these cases are irrelevent to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Maybe Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani did not realize this when he issued the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.You

keep waddling from one error to another, as all BoDers do.
If you believe in baptism of blood/baptism of desire, then you have to say that people receive the Sacrament in voto and that the Sacrament still acts as instrumental cause of their salvation.

Lionel:
This is theology. Is this theology built on the premise of baptism of blood/baptism of desire being physically visible to us ; known in personal cases on earth? This decides if it is an exception to the traditional interpretation of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.Otherwise what Ladislaus has mentioned above is theoretical, hypothetical, acceptable in faith.
-Lionel Andrades

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=32706&min=3&num=3