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From Hunter, S.J.: Outilines of Dogmatic Theology,  Empty From Hunter, S.J.: Outilines of Dogmatic Theology,

Post  tornpage Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:28 am

186. Soul and Body of the Church. But when the
Church is compared to a body, it must be remem-
bered that this is a living body, for the Church is
not a dead corpse. Now, we know that in a living
man there is a material body informed by a spiritual
soul : the body considered as being apart from the
soul is dead, while the soul is essentially living ; but
we have not the full life of a man unless soul and
body are fittingly united together. From these con-
siderations we are led to inquire whether there is
anything in the Church that corresponds to the soul
and body of a living man. Now the body, con-
sidered as a mere mass of matter, is equally ready
for many purposes ; it is the union with a human
soul which determines it as being a body of a man.
In the same way, a society is a collection of men,
but there must be something beside and beyond the
fact that a number of men are gathered together
that determines them as being a society of this or
that character : there must be some end which it is
proposed to attain by association, and some spirit
permeating the society, and leading each of its
members so to shape his individual conduct as more
or less to promote this end. It will often be difficult
to put into words what it is that constitutes this
spirit, and it will sometimes be yet harder to feel
assured how far it is partaken of by all those who in
outward semblance belong to the society ; also, we
often have reason to believe that the spirit exists in
some men who do not, in a material sense, belong
to the association. This is well seen in the case of
a nation. There is some principle, some sameness
of spirit, which unites all men who are entitled to
be called Englishmen, although it might be hard to
state with fulness and precision what elements are
found in this spirit. Regularly and in the bulk of
cases the possession of this spirit goes along with
birth and residence in England ; and in a certain
true sense, all in whom this material element is
found may be called Englishmen. But not in the
lull sense ; for there is little doubt that there are
persons resident in England who are wholly devoid
of the English spirit : who make to themselves an
end diverse from the end of the English nation, and
whose action is directed to the attainment of the
end which they have proposed to themselves ; while,
on the other hand, there may be persons resident in
other countries who are full of a spirit which is, in
fact, the English spirit whether they are aware of it
or not. On these principles we can distinguish the
soul and the body of the English nation. The
external fact of residence marks who belong to the
body ; possession of the spirit makes the man
belong to the soul : regularly, the soul and the
body are composed of the same persons ; but excep-
tionally, there may be persons belonging to the soul
who belong not to the body, and belonging to the
body who belong not to the soul.

In exactly the same way we speak of the Soul
and the Body of the Church. The Church is a
society of men instituted by Christ, and having for
its end to lead and enable men to avail themselves
of the redemption of the human race wrought by
the Founder ; and this society is as we have seen
(n. 168) visible: it has an external organization.
But it is important to know whether the possession
of the spirit is co-extensive -with the outward organi-
zation, or whether, on the other hand, the spirit
may in some instances be found beyond the bounds
of the organization, while in other instances it is
lacking within those bounds. In other words, we
must inquire what constitutes membership of the
Soul of the Church, and who they are that are
members of the Body.

187. Who belong to the Soul. From the explana-
tion given it follows without difficulty that they, and
they only, belong to the Soul of the Church who,
if the question were now to be settled, would be
found to have secured to themselves the fruits of
the Redemption ; to have the spiritual life abun-
dantly that Christ came to give (St. John x. 10) ; to
be partakers of the Divine Nature (2 St. Peter i. 4),
as St. Peter speaks : for these only are fit to pass to
that union with God which constitutes the state of
the Blessed ; in other words, the Just and the Just
alone constitute the Soul of the Church, (n. 184, II.)

It will be seen that membership of the Soul of
the Church is a present fact, and is independent of
past and future ; he that is a member of it may
cease to be so by Sin, he that is not a member may
become so by Justification, (n. 184, IV.) Exactly
the same is true of nations : he that is now full
of English spirit which actuates him in all his
conduct may once have been the determined enemy
of England, and may hereafter again take up this
spirit of enmity. It follows that there may be
some of the Predestined who do not now belong to
the Soul of the Church, and some who now belong
to that Soul but are not of the number of the
Predestined.

We have been speaking so far of the fulness of
membership of the Soul of the Church ; but it is
certain that many who are not of the number of the
Just nevertheless are receiving something of the
benefit of the Redemption, for they receive grace
which tends to lead them to Justification, and
without which they cannot be justified, as will be
seen in the Treatise on Grace : these, then, may be
said to belong to the Soul of the Church, but in an
imperfect sense.

It will be observed that there are no outward
means of telling, except by mere conjecture, what
men do belong to the Soul of the Church, and what
men do not belong to it : neither have we any
information, beyond conjecture, what proportion of
mankind belong to it at any given instant. God
has reserved to Himself this knowledge and the
knowledge of the number of the Predestined.
(2 Timothy ii. 19, and the Secret said in the
Mass during Lent.)




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From Hunter, S.J.: Outilines of Dogmatic Theology,  Empty Re: From Hunter, S.J.: Outilines of Dogmatic Theology,

Post  Guest Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:29 am

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error... It is assuredly impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”

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Post  MRyan Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:36 pm

Pope Leo XIII is condemning the notion of a Protestant type “hidden and invisible Church” that denies the necessity of a visible Body. Fr. Hunter obviously does not envisage an invisible Church without a visible Body.

My one problem with the treatise of Fr. Hunter is its use of the term “Soul of the Church” in a context which seems to suggest that one may belong to the Soul of the Church without in some way belonging to the Body. However, just as Fr. Fenton explained the true sense of St. Bellarmine’s exposition on the “Soul of the Church” in relation to the Catechumen, the same explanation can be applied here (we’ll save that for another time!).

The Church teaches at one and the same time that the Soul (the Holy Ghost) and the Body of the Church are one, just as the human soul forms and animates the body as a composite whole; yet, the Holy Ghost does operate outside of her visible structure, but never apart from the one Body. These truths must stand as one … there can be no contradiction.

Satis Cognitum:

The Church Always Visible

3. And, since it was necessary that His divine mission should be perpetuated to the end of rime, He took to Himself Disciples, trained by himself, and made them partakers of His own authority. And, when He had invoked upon them from Heaven the Spirit of Truth, He bade them go through the whole world and faithfully preach to all nations, what He had taught and what He had commanded, so that by the profession of His doctrine, and the observance of His laws, the human race might attain to holiness on earth and never-ending happiness in Heaven. In this wise, and on this principle, the Church was begotten. If we consider the chief end of His Church and the proximate efficient causes of salvation, it is undoubtedly spiritual; but in regard to those who constitute it, and to the things which lead to these spiritual gifts, it is external and necessarily visible. The Apostles received a mission to teach by visible and audible signs, and they discharged their mission only by words and acts which certainly appealed to the senses. So that their voices falling upon the ears of those who heard them begot faith in souls-"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the words of Christ" (Rom. x., 17). And faith itself - that is assent given to the first and supreme truth - though residing essentially in the intellect, must be manifested by outward profession-"For with the heart we believe unto justice, but with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. x., 10). In the same way in man, nothing is more internal than heavenly grace which begets sanctity, but the ordinary and chief means of obtaining grace are external: that is to say, the sacraments which are administered by men specially chosen for that purpose, by means of certain ordinances.

Jesus Christ commanded His Apostles and their successors to the end of time to teach and rule the nations. He ordered the nations to accept their teaching and obey their authority. But his correlation of rights and duties in the Christian commonwealth not only could not have been made permanent, but could not even have been initiated except through the senses, which are of all things the messengers and interpreters.

For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - "Now you are the body of Christ" (I Cor. xii., 27)-and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: and because it is the body of Christ is it living and energizing, because by the infusion of His power Christ guards and sustains it, just as the vine gives nourishment and renders fruitful the branches united to it. And as in animals the vital principle is unseen and invisible, and is evidenced and manifested by the movements and action of the members, so the principle of supernatural life in the Church is clearly shown in that which is done by it.

From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: as also are those who regard the Church as a human institution which claims a certain obedience in discipline and external duties, but which is without the perennial communication of the gifts of divine grace, and without all that which testifies by constant and undoubted signs to the existence of that life which is drawn from God. It is assuredly as impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life. As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time. If it did not, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time; both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure. Wherefore Chrysostom writes: "Secede not from the Church: for nothing is stronger than the Church. Thy hope is the Church; thy salvation is the Church; thy refuge is the Church. It is higher than the heavens and wider than the earth. It never grows old, but is ever full of vigour. Wherefore Holy Writ pointing to its strength and stability calls it a mountain" (Hom. De capto Eutropio, n. 6).
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Post  tornpage Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:58 pm

Fr. Hunter obviously does not envisage an invisible Church without a visible Body.

Of course, and even a cursory reading of the quotation would make that apparent.

However, just as Fr. Fenton explained the true sense of St. Bellarmine’s exposition on the “Soul of the Church” in relation to the Catechumen, the same explanation can be applied here (we’ll save that for another time!).

Absolutely, and just as that doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine. was using the phrase "soul of the church" in a legitimate and orthodox sense, so is Fr. Hunter.

Shoot, even the phrase "baptism" - need I remind one - can be used in an illegitimate sense.

Fr. Hunter was not among those in the sights of Leo XIII when he penned those lines in Satis Cognitum.

Rasha, it seems that you either "read things over and over" until you can resolve in your mind the right spin to give them so that they accord with your view, or you read them very fast and load them into your gun for ammo to use on those in your sights.

Neither method is proper exegesis, or even any exegesis at all.

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Post  tornpage Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:19 pm

The Church is a visible body, and outside of her is no salvation and no remission of sins. Yet the justified have had their sins remitted, and one may have their sins remitted and be justified before receipt of baptism, as with Cornelius, etc. and yet before baptism they are not part of the visible Church.

Does recognizing the possibility of justification for some not baptized (and hence not part of the "visible" body) violate the dogma of the One, True Church being visibile?

No, for that would be absurd, and would mark the fathers of Trent as violators of the dogma of the Church's visibility; would mark St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus, and on and as holding beliefs which violate the dogma of the visible Church united with the Pontiff.

Again, absurd.

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Post  tornpage Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:56 pm

From St. Robert Bellarmine, De Ecclessia Militante (as quoted in Monsignor Fenton's article, referred to by MRyan)

Again, some are of the soul, and not of the body, as catechumens or excommunicated persons, if they express faith and charity as they very well may.

http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/fenton/The%20Use%20of%20the%20terms%20Body%20and%20Soul%20with%20Reference%20to%20the%20Catholic%20Church.pdf

A proper use of referring to someone as part of the soul is in use here, just like that used by Fr. Hunter.

I'm sure some will totally miss the point and say, "aha, St. Robert only talks about catechumen and baptized excommunicates." Well, yes, but your point is that only the baptized are part of the Church, and catechumen are not baptized. So that observation would not really help the Feeneyites here at all.

And as to my acceptance of the fact that one may be "part of the soul of the Church" without being a catechumen, that point does not depend on St. Robert, but on the teaching of the Magisterium. What the teaching of St. Robert does for me and my position is it elucidates how the concept is legitimate and used by a doctor of the Church. My ultimate reliance is, of course, on the Church's Magisterium.

The Church's approved doctors and theologians join her in the seamless teaching that is the saving faith of Christ.

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Post  tornpage Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:11 pm

From Monsignor Fenton's article:

A man is inwardly united to Christ in so far as he elicits some supernatural
activity stemming from the gratia capitalis of our Lord Himself. No man can
have the supernatural life, or even the beginning of that life as found in faith
without charity, unless it be communicated to him by Christ. Thus there is a
necessary contact between our Lord and every man who falls within the category
of those who are "of the soul of the Church." But this union is invisible and inward,
brought about in and through the communication of divine grace.
The outward union with Christ is the factor by which a man places himself in
the ranks of the Church militant. The Church, as a society, is the body of Christ,
and thus the man who is a part of this society is actually joined to our Lord. The
persons who are "of the body of the Church" according to the terminology of St.
Robert, are precisely those who fulfill the minimum and essential requisites for
being parts of this society, and who thus are outwardly and visibly in contact with
Christ.

St. Robert offers catechumens and excommunicated persons as examples of
those who are not of the body of the Church, but who may be of the soul. He
teaches explicitly that such people are not members of the Catholic Church.12
Yet, far from postulating the existence of some spiritual and invisible society or
Church, in any manner distinct from the Catholic Church, to which such persons
would belong and through which they could achieve their eternal salvation, St.
Robert teaches distinctly that they can be saved by being of the Church by
desire.13

Thus there is one, and only one necessary social vehicle of salvation.
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Post  MRyan Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:16 pm

Tornpage, the bulldog.

Actually, that was a nice follow-up.

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Post  Guest Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:05 am

I really can't believe you guys are defending the condemned error of belonging to the "soul of the church" without belonging to the body!

Rasha is right this theory was condemned by Leo XIII and Pius XI did a follow-up because people like you were still promoting it after he condemned it:

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, Jan. 6, 1928, #10:
“For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

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Post  MRyan Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:16 pm

duckbill wrote:I really can't believe you guys are defending the condemned error of belonging to the "soul of the church" without belonging to the body!

Rasha is right this theory was condemned by Leo XIII and Pius XI did a follow-up because people like you were still promoting it after he condemned it:

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, Jan. 6, 1928, #10:
“For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
Ah, and this from the person who believes (by dogmatic declaration) that no one can be justified by desire (voto) without actual water baptism (re); never mind what the Church actually teaches and never mind the universal moral consensus of the saints, doctors and theologians since Trent. You say you agree with Bill Strom on this.

But, Duckbill, I’m still waiting for you to condemn Bill’s Strom’s teaching where he seems to be directly opposed to the declaration of Pope Pius XI, when Strom wrote (about validly baptized adult Protestants ):

In individual cases, however in numbers known only to God, validly baptized persons might not be guilty of the sins of heresy and/or schism, owing to "invincible ignorance"( non-culpible ignorance) of the true Faith, Canon 5 in these cases they may belong to the Catholic Church by desire, provided they put no obstacle of the will to the authority of the Vicar of Christ, and obey God in things revealed for salvation such as being free from all mortal sin, and believe explicitly the mysteries of the faith which are necessary by a necessity of means, especially the mysteries of the Trinity and the Incarnation for salvation. (Note 7)
Come on, Duckbill, step up to the plate and at least be consistent with your pick-and-choose doctrines. If you reject this doctrine of Strom’s for being opposed to the infallible teaching of Pope Pius XI and Pope Leo XIII, then say so. I mean, if you have no problem voicing your "disagreement" with the teachings of the Church (and her universal consensus of saints and theologians) on justification, surely you'll have no problem with taking exception to the "material heresy" of Bill Strom.

But I think its clear that you can no more understand the Church’s teaching on justification in re, than you can understand unity with the Church in re. You do not understand that to be united by or to the “soul of the Church” does not mean that one can be a formal member of the Body, but neither does this mean that such non-membership positively excludes an invisible “membership” in virtual act, in spirit, by desire (mentaliter, voto); or, to take St. Bellarmine’s comparison, “as the man with the child still hidden in his mother's womb” (Cardinal Journet)

Speaking of Cardinal Journet, here is his definition of the “created soul of the Church”, which I am sure will cause all kinds of havoc to your Catholic tunnel vision:

Pertaining to the Church's soul are (1) the sacramental powers of Baptism, of Confirmation, and of Order; (2) the jurisdictional power itself along with the right orientation it bestows on all those who listen to it with faith and obedience; and (3) sacramental grace. In other words, the powers of order and of jurisdiction, conferred first on the Apostles and handed down without a break to our times, are a constitutive and permanent element in the created soul of the Church; which soul, by structural necessity, is therefore hierarchized or apostolic.
Not to burden you with a fuller explanation you are sure to reject, perhaps there are those who might be interested in what else Cardinal Journet had to say:

Protestantism, prompt to dissociate invisible realities from visible, answered that there exists an "invisible Church" to which the just of all times belong, and a "visible Church" (or many visible Churches) which nobody is bound to enter. A certain number of Catholic writers, without wishing to dislocate the Church in this manner, imagined that her soul, i. e. sanctifying grace as they said, extended far beyond the limits of her body. They added that the just who in good faith remain ignorant of the Church, belong to the soul of the Church, and are therefore not outside her.

In the first place, however, such a mode of distinguishing the soul and body of the Church is without foundation in the authentic documents of the magisterium. It would seem to have been influenced by the Protestant conception of a "spiritual Church", distinct from the "visible Church", and its use appears to be dangerous. On the other hand we can easily see that the soul of the Church is not sanctifying grace pure and simple, as found in those who remain ignorant of the Church in good faith, but sanctifying grace as transmitted by the sacramental power and ruled by the jurisdictional power.

I do not say that there is no supernatural life at all outside the Church, but simply that there is none that does not look towards her. As preliminary to a deeper study of the soul of the Church, let us examine more closely the position of the just "outside".

1. The just of the first category [from those groups which lack the sacraments, or are separated from the Church, but have genuine sacraments] enjoy supernatural life—i. e. sanctifying grace issuing in the infused virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The whole tendency of this life is to grow towards completion, to enrich itself with those modalities which grace possesses in the sacred humanity of Christ, to open out, in a word, into that sacramental grace which, as we have seen, is a primary and fundamental element of the soul of the Church. It thus creates in those who have it a kind of living aspiration to that soul, a real and ontological desire for the Church. Men of this sort are of the Church, say the theologians, not yet re but already voto, mentaliter, by desire. Membership re and membership voto are here opposed, not as real membership to unreal, but as actual, consummated ontological membership to virtual, prefigured ontological membership, as membership in achieved act to membership in virtual act. Membership re, visible, corporeal, terminal, achieved, may be compared with membership voto, invisible, spiritual, prefigured, of desire; as the plant in flower is compared with the plant in bud; or, to take Bellarmine's comparison, as the man with the child still hidden in his mother's womb.

However reduced may be the activities of grace in such souls, they will still be in need of speculative and practical directives. They must know, for example—if they are to believe in them supernaturally—of the existence and providence of God, of the principles of morality and so on. Data of this sort are doubtless woven into the religious and cultural web within which they live, but are bound to be vitiated by endless errors. Each will have to do what he can on his own account, under the inner influence of the Holy Spirit who fails no one—though we may all too easily mistake our own voice for His—to sift the true from the false, the good from the bad. There will be omissions and inaccuracies, more or less serious according to the religious group concerned—Judaism for example or Islam being more helpful than paganism, itself a thing of many degrees. In so far as these religions shut out the truth they are instruments of darkness; but by such truths as they have retained (or perhaps regained), they may, however accidentally and imperfectly, be sources of light for millions of souls inwardly sustained by the Holy Spirit.


http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/chwordin1.htm#02
I can imagine your severe discomfort with that!

But please feel free to correct the Cardinal, Duckbill.
MRyan
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From Hunter, S.J.: Outilines of Dogmatic Theology,  Empty Re: From Hunter, S.J.: Outilines of Dogmatic Theology,

Post  tornpage Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:58 pm

Duckbill,

I ask that you please read carefully everything posted. You will, I hope, come to understand that neither St. Robert Bellarmine, nor Fr. Hunter, nor Cardinal Journet said anything inconsistent with what Pius XII wrote: there may be members "united" with the Church in spirit or soul, yet not of the body. Do you think Pius XII would deny that? Remember, this is the same Pius XII who said (as summarized in Monsignor Fenton's article posted by MRyan in a separate thread):

In the text of the Mystici Corporis, the Sovereign Pontiff clearly and authoritatively taught the requisites for actual membership in the Church. He issued as his own teaching the Bellarminian doctrine that “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.” He likewise, however, spoke of the possibility of salvation for those who “are related to the Mystical Body by a certain unconscious yearning and desire (inscio quodam desiderio ac voto).” He depicted such individuals as existing in a state “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.”

That "relation" to the Mystical Body may effect a "union" sufficient for salvation for some. The same Pius XII defended, as sovereign pontiff, the doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church. Obviously, he believed it possible for salvation for those not members of the Mystical Body in a strict sense (which of course he used, as you cited); and therefore, in light of the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, they must be, in a real and salvific sense, "inside" the Church.

Fr. Hunter's view is in accord with all of this. His language might be different had he written after certain distinctions and clarifications were made about the use of the phrase "soul of the Church." Yet St. Robert used the exact same phrase in reference to those not members of the body: he said they belonged to the soul.

I know the game. I used my wits (and quotes out of context) to make people opposed to the Feeneyite view look ridiculous; I was damn good at it.

And now I see what a fool I was.

I'll be patient with you, but do consider and step outside the box.




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