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Tridentine Rite Mass without extra ecclesiam nulla salus is not the Tridentine Rite Mass

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Tridentine Rite Mass without extra ecclesiam nulla salus is not the Tridentine Rite Mass

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:02 am

Tridentine Rite Mass without extra ecclesiam nulla salus is not the Tridentine Rite Mass
Father Francesco Giordano whose present doctorate thesis is outside the church no salvation offered Mass yesterday in the Extraordinary Form


There was the Latin Mass offered yesterday Ascension Sunday at 8 am at the Church Santa Maria di Nazareth, Boccea, Rome. A priest, Deacon and sub-deacon offered this Tridentine Rite Mass. They were facing the altar; in the same direction as the Congregation. There were hymns in the Gregorian chant.

The President of the Una Voce, Rome has listed this solemn morning Mass on Sundays as according to the Roman Missial of 1962.

The issue is how can they claim it is the Tridentine Rite Mass without the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?

Many Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate in Rome have probably not read the text of the ex cathedra dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence.

The Tridentine Rite Mass is the ancient Mass of the popes and saints who all proclaimed, that the secular media would call’ the rigorist interpretation’ of the dogma.

Outside the Church there is no salvation is interestingly the doctoral thesis of Father Francesco Giordano an Italian who was a celebrant at Mass yesterday morning. The chief celebrant was Father Settimio Manelli F.F.I, the Parish priest (Tel: 06-6156091 E-mail: santamariadinazareth@gmail.com )

Does Father Francesco Giordano who is fluent in English believe in the rigorist interpretation of outside the church there is no salvation? Does he affirm in public that everyone with no exception today needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation?

Or does he reject the dogma by saying:-

1. Those in invincible ignorance or with the baptism of desire are known to us on earth and so everyone with no exception do not have to formally enter the Church.

2. Lumen Gentium 16 refers to those who can be saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience. So Vatican Council II rejects the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

3. Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated by Venerable Pope Pius XII for affirming the rigorist interpretation of the ex cathedra dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence.

These are usually the three arguments against extra ecclesiam nulla salus, by the secular media and Catholic universities and seminaries. I do not know how Father Francesco handles it in his thesis. I am waiting to meet him.

If he uses any of the above three irrational and false arguments it is a rejection of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

It is a grave sin to reject an ex cathedra dogma. According to Canon Law a priest in public mortal sin (Canon 916) is not to offer Mass. He first must make public amends, remove the scandal and, receive absolution in the Sacrament of Confession.

Father Francesco is not a member of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. He only lives with the community at Boccea according to Father John Francesco F.F.I, an American, who also offers the Latin Mass there.

A member of this community is Father Massimilliano dei Gasparri F.F.I who would say ‘there is no de facto baptism of desire that we know of’.

De facto do we know any case of a non Catholic saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance I would ask Father Francesco?

The moment you answer with , “No. We do not know any case”, whether you know it or not, you are affirming the rigorist interpretation of outside the church there is no salvation.

Father Massimilliano would say that we accept the baptism of desire as a possibility. De facto we don’t know any case.

He is in agreement with the Catechism of the Catholic Church n.846 (Outside the Church No Salvation). N.846 says everyone needs to enter the Church‘s through a door.’ CCC 846 is saying everyone needs to enter the Church formally. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is the rigorist interpretation of the dogma.

This is not contradicted by the earlier paragraph of CCC 846 which says all salvation comes through Jesus and the Church. Since those saved implicitly (baptism of desire etc) are known only to God. De facto we do not know any case of implicit salvation.

Similarly those who know about Jesus and the Church and yet do not enter (Lumen Gentium 14) as compared to those in invincible ignorance who are saved, are known finally only to God. So it does not contradict the dogma. There is no text which says de facto we know of cases in the present times of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. No text also claims that de facto: in reality we know of non Catholics saved on earth with a good conscience, the Word of God, or in partial communion with the Church.

So Lumen Gentium 16 or other text in Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence.

It would be dissent by Father Francesco, or any other priest, to claim that Lumen Gentium 16 contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Another liberal lie is that the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 excommunicated Father Leonard Feeney for heresy. The text of the Letter refers to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’ teaching. The dogma, the infallible teaching Cantate Domino, Council of Florence issued by Pope Eugene IV indicates all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. The Letter supported Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine. No where does the Letter say that he was excommunicated for heresy. He was excommunicated for discipline. He was disobedient to the cardinal-archbishop of Boston Richard Cushing who claimed w know of cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance in the present times and so this contradicted the rigorist interpretation of the dogma and Fr.Leonard Feeney.

So today no priest should be able to say that 1) Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for affirming Cantate Domino and 2) Vatican Council II negates the dogma.

Without extra eccleisam nulla salus the Tridentine Rite Mass is not the Tridentine Rite Mass.

The dogma is in accord with Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7), Catechism of the Catholic Church n.845, 846, Dominus Iesus 20 etc.

‘Go out and proclaim the Good News’ was the Gospel message yesterday Ascension Sunday’…those who do not believe will be condemned’ (Mark 16:16) said Jesus. Everyone presently on earth needs to enter the Church for salvation. De facto we do not know any exception.
____________________________________________


“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II
Note: All need the baptism of water for salvation and Catholics only give baptism to adults with Catholic Faith. So Ad Gentes 7 is saying that all people need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.-Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II.

This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.-Dominus Iesus 20

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church. However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church…-Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (Emphasis added)

845.To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.-Catechism of the Catholic Church n.845 Catechism of the Catholic Church

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.-Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 (Note : ‘which men through Baptism as through a door’ was a term used by the Church Fathers for the rigorist interpretation of outside the church there is no salvation).

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Re: Tridentine Rite Mass without extra ecclesiam nulla salus is not the Tridentine Rite Mass

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:10 am

PRIESTS OFFERING EXTRAORDINARY FORM OF MASS IN ROME DO NOT MEET CONDITIONS OF UNIVERSAE ECCLESIAE : INSTRUCTIONS OF ECCLESIA DEI June 3, 2011

20. With respect to the question of the necessary requirements for a priest to be held idoneus (“qualified”) to celebrate in the forma extraordinaria, the following is hereby stated:
a.) Every Catholic priest who is not impeded by Canon Law7 is to be considered idoneus (“qualified”) for the celebration of the Holy Mass in the forma extraordinaria.- Universae Ecclesiae, ECCLESIA DEI,Instructionon the application of the Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum ofHIS HOLINESS POPE BENEDICT XVI given Motu Proprio30 April, 2011, Cardinal William Levada, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,Vatican.

Last Sunday at 10.30 a.m I attended the Tridentine Rite Mass held at the Church of the Annunziata, near the Vatican. The Mass was offered by a priest of the community Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate.

I wonder if he meets the conditions of Universae Ecclesiae to offer Mass especially with reference to N.20.

We know that a priest in public mortal sin is not to offer Mass according to Canon Law. We also know that it is a grave sin to reject in public an ex cathedra dogma. Here is the dogma that the Franciscan community is unable to affirm in public.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org

The OMI priest Fr.Tissa Balasuriya was excommunicated by Pope John Paul II for rejected the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady.

If the priest who offered Mass last Sunday cannot affirm the above dogma in public it is a violation of Canon Law . He also does not meet the conditions of Universae Ecclesiae N.20 to celebrate Holy Mass.

Cantate Dominio is in accord with Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7.

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-AG 7
Note: All need the baptism of water for salvation and Catholics only give baptism to adults with Catholic Faith. So Ad Gentes 7 is saying that all people need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

The same message is repeated in Dominus Iesus (2000)

This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.-Dominus Iesus 20

If there is an objection with reference to Lumen Gentium 16 it is a straw man. LG 16 does not say that we know any case of invincible ignorance in the present times.

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.-Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II.

So Lumen Gentium 16 does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. There is no text in Vatican Council II which contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

If there is an objection that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for affirming extra ecclesiam nulla salus, this is a falsehood. The dogma referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston 1949 indicates that all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell.

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church…-Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (Emphasis added)

The Letter of the Holy Office supported Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine. The dogma (Cantate Domino above) indicates all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell. This was exactly what Fr. Leonard Feeney taught.

So when a priest offers the Latin Tridentine Rite Mass then he needs to affirm the dogma when asked. Otherwise he is in grave public sin, when it is known to many, as in the case of the priests in Rome who offer the extraordinary form of the Mass and deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and this is known to many.

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Re: Tridentine Rite Mass without extra ecclesiam nulla salus is not the Tridentine Rite Mass

Post  tornpage on Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:19 pm

Lionel,

I was wondering when you were going to show up here. This should be sort of a home park for you.

Welcome.
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