Latest topics
» Polish traditionalists handicapped : Archbishop Lefebvre made a mistake
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:20 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney in the USA when they interpret Vatican Council II with the irrational premise deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Bishop Robert J.McManus and Brother Thomas Augustine MICM,Superior,St.Benedict Center,Still River,MA, interpret Vatican Council II with the 'possibilites are exceptions' error
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:47 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» SSPX must be aware of the deception of Abp.Guido Pozzo and confront it
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:57 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Two popes must ask all Catholics to affirm Vatican Council II (premise-free) as they do
Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:16 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary Still River Ma., could lose canomical status because of Feeneyism
Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:54 am by Lionel L. Andrades

»  Traditionalists oppose Pope Francis on morals but give him a pass on salvation
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:06 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Someone needs to help Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Archbishop Pozzo and Archbishop Di Noia see how they use a false premise to interpret Vatican Council II
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:53 pm by Lionel L. Andrades

» Robert Siscoe and John of St. Thomas Respond to Fr. Cekada
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:25 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Still no denial from Abp.Guido Pozzo : SSPX must accept Vatican Council II with a false doctrine and the new theology based on an irrational premise Image result for Photo of Archbishop Guido Pozzo
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:03 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Five Catholic academics accept the development of doctrine on salvation and Vatican Council II but reject it on morals and the death penalty
Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:32 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Dr.Robert Fastiggi wants Bishop Donald Sanborn and Chris Ferrara to affirm a magisterium in heresy and schism like him
Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:30 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» ]Christine Niles uses the false premise to interpret magisterial documents
Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:30 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» SSPX has a right to canonical status when they correct their doctrinal error in the 'chart'
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:25 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» No one shows Massimo Faggioli his precise theological and philosophical mistake
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:07 am by Lionel L. Andrades

» Rethink "Feeneyism"?
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:02 pm by tornpage

» Brother Andre Marie MICM, the Prior at the St. Benedict Center does not correct Frs.Brian Harrison and Cekada,Bishops Sanborn,Pirvanus,Kelly and Fellay
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:24 pm by MRyan

» Revisiting Diocese/Parish Screening Policy
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:03 pm by MRyan

» When sedes and trads can accept that Pius XII made a mistake then popes since John XXIII are no more in heresy
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:08 pm by MRyan

» Doctrinal talks were conducted with Fr.Gleize on 'the other side'
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:08 am by Lionel L. Andrades


Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:54 am

I was listening to EWTN radio and Mark Marivalle was on. I really liked his book on the Co-Redemtrix but in his comments during the program I was shocked to hear him say that Mary is Souse of the Holy Spirit. This seems aprox. to heresy. Since the Son is not generated by the Holy Spirit but by the Father. I have been studying the Trinity lately and have been in some debates with Greek Orthodox, so one needs to study the Trinity for that. Anyway the creed of Toledo, which the Orthodox HATE! Has always been considered a true and very sound theological treatment of the Trinity. And in there is explains that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit but this doesn't refer to the 3rd person but to the Triune God in His power.
Also Mary has only one spouse St. Joseph and to refer to her having 2 spouses seems pretty impious to me. Is she to be considered a bigamist?

Interested in your feed back? Am I wrong and how?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Allie on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:12 am

cowboy wrote:I was listening to EWTN radio and Mark Marivalle was on. I really liked his book on the Co-Redemtrix but in his comments during the program I was shocked to hear him say that Mary is Souse of the Holy Spirit. This seems aprox. to heresy. Since the Son is not generated by the Holy Spirit but by the Father. I have been studying the Trinity lately and have been in some debates with Greek Orthodox, so one needs to study the Trinity for that. Anyway the creed of Toledo, which the Orthodox HATE! Has always been considered a true and very sound theological treatment of the Trinity. And in there is explains that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit but this doesn't refer to the 3rd person but to the Triune God in His power.
Also Mary has only one spouse St. Joseph and to refer to her having 2 spouses seems pretty impious to me. Is she to be considered a bigamist?

Interested in your feed back? Am I wrong and how?

Hi, Cowboy- I hope you are well.

First off, I know that you have a pretty relaxed and easy-going personality and that comes through in how you write and I appreciate it. With a topic like this one though (speaking of Our Lady and her union with the Holy Trinity and then dealing with her perpetual virginity) I think it is important to tread carefully in our wording and how we are thinking of our Lady, being careful to always show her ( & Almighty God) due reverence.

The idea of Mary being espoused to the Holy Spirit is nothing new and is certainly NOT heretical.

According to St. Louis de Montfort in True Devotion:
36. When the Holy Ghost, her Spouse, finds Mary in a soul, He flies there and enters fully; He communicates Himself to that soul in abundance and to the extent that it makes room for His Spouse. One of the chief reasons why the Holy Ghost does not now work striking wonders in souls is that He fails to find in the a sufficiently close union with His faithful and inseparable Spouse. I say inseparable Spouse, for from the moment the Substantial Love of the Father and the Son espoused Mary to form Jesus Christ, the Head of the elect, and Jesus Christ in the elect, He has never repudiated her, for at all times she has been faithful and fruitful.

Garrigou-LaGrange, The Mother of the Savior:
Her charity- her love of God in Himself and of souls for His sake-surpassed even in it s beginning the charity of all the saints combined, for it was of the same degree as her fulness of grace. Mary was always most intimately united to the Father as His best-beloved daughter, to the Son as His Virgin Mother, and to the Holy Ghost in a mystic marriage more perfect than the world had ever known. She was, in a way beyond all power of understanding, a living temple of the Trinity, loved by God more than all creatures, and corresponding perfectly with that love by consecrating herself fully to Him in the instant of her conception, and by living thenceforth in the most complete conformity to His Will. (p131)

Also, I highly recommend reading the following article discussing Mary as Spouse of the Holy Spirit- particularly St.Maximilian Kolbe's explaining of it according to Sacred Tradition. http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4270
(I actually haven't finished reading it, yet. I hope to get a moment today to finish it...)

There are really countless commentaries on this subject that show that this has been a longheld belief in the Church. I have only scratched the surface with what I have provided.

As far as how all of this works out with her marriage to St.Joseph -I am sure that others on here will be able to explain more eloquently and I have 4 boys that are about to go nuts here with mama sitting on the computer and ignoring them, so I will have to get back to you when I get a chance and when I have gathered my thoughts.

God bless!
avatar
Allie

Posts : 100
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2010-12-20
Location : southern Ohio, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:55 am

Allie thanks for the response but I don't think I am being sloppy. I think some things are so pleasing pietistically that we don't seem to question what they are really saying. The article is good and thank you but it said this:
"With Mary's Immaculate Conception, God the Father and the Son willed that Mary be united to their common Spirit of Love in such a close and intimate manner that would allow the Holy Spirit to bring about the Incarnation of the Word within her womb, making Mary the Mother of God;"

I hve no problem with Mary being linked with the Holy Spirit thru her Imaculate Conception but to say:
"that would allow the Holy Spirit to bring about the Incarnation of the Word"

Just CAN'T be correct. The incarnation is from the Father not the Holy Spirit.

the Creed of Toledo says:
"#38 Yet we must not believe that the Holy Spirit is Father of the Son,
because of the fact that Mary conceived
by the overshadowing of the same Holy Spirit,
lest we seem to assert that there are two Fathers of the Son,
which is certainly impious to say."

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:18 am

"whatever God does outside the Trinity (in the world of creatures)
belongs to the common or united action of the three divine persons."
http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=33977

Sometimes the Bible refers to the Holy Spirit as the whole action of God and not just the 3rd person. Plus I noticed in the line in question says:
"The
Holy Spirit will come upon you, AND the power of the Most High
will overshadow you; therefore, the child to be born will be
called holy, the Son of God"

The power of the most high must be referring to God the Father or to God as Triune as well as the Holy Spirit being also the Triune God not the third Person, because the actions outside of the Trinity are done as one, but appropriation, their relation to each other with-in the life of God, are appropriated to the Person. To concieve the Son is the act of the Father even though He is making Him man it is still with-in the life of the Trinity because Jesus is True God and not outside the Trinitarian relationship.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Allie on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:22 am

Cowboy,

I read your responses and I am going to respond to them. However, I am getting ready to go to Mass right now and I need a little time to make a proper response (which may not be until tonight or tomorrow at the earliest).

God bless you,
Allie
avatar
Allie

Posts : 100
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2010-12-20
Location : southern Ohio, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:48 pm

cowboy,

Have you read any of St. Maximilian Kolbe's writings on Our Lady? (just wondering)

(side note: I actually took Dr. Miravalle's 'Mariology' class... I can dig up my notes in a day or so to give you his fuller explanation--sorry for the delay, but it's a busy couple of days for me)

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:26 am

I think Cowboy is on to something here. I would like to see someone address his actual arguments. It does not matter what St. Kolbe, St. Louis de Montfort, or any other saint said if a Creed of the Church says the contrary. A Creed....even of a local council has more authority than the quote of a saint. Additionally, St. Louis de Montfort and St. Kolbe wrote mainly pious works.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:28 am

By the way when I was in Spain I heard the same thing that Cowboy is saying, it seems that there were some Spanish theologians, I heard Claretians, that held this position. I wish there was some way to do research into this.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:00 pm

Hey ML,
Are you still in contact with him? Maybe you could send my question to him (cleaning up the typos please Very Happy )

Further he was promoting some apparition in Holland I think. There was some fishy stuff there too but I forgot what it was.

RAsha is right De Montfort was mainly a pious saint. The Jansenists had an aversion to Marian devotion, I think, and instead of becoming ecumenical, he went to the opposite extreme, stressing devotion to Mary. At times overly so, calling Mary "divine," of course it was to be taken as a pious sentiment not a theological statement.

MAximillian too was mainly pious but even though he was attempting to bring his devotion into theological terms, he was using De Montfort for his basis.

I did a quick search in the Church Fathers and "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" could not be found. Like baptism of desire I think it just snuck-in and no one really noticed because it sounds so nice and sweet, harmless but let an Orthodox priest get his hands on that and AHHHH!!!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  columba on Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:57 pm

cowboy wrote:Hey ML,
Are you still in contact with him? Maybe you could send my question to him (cleaning up the typos please Very Happy )

Further he was promoting some apparition in Holland I think. There was some fishy stuff there too but I forgot what it was.

RAsha is right De Montfort was mainly a pious saint. The Jansenists had an aversion to Marian devotion, I think, and instead of becoming ecumenical, he went to the opposite extreme, stressing devotion to Mary. At times overly so, calling Mary "divine," of course it was to be taken as a pious sentiment not a theological statement.

MAximillian too was mainly pious but even though he was attempting to bring his devotion into theological terms, he was using De Montfort for his basis.

I did a quick search in the Church Fathers and "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" could not be found. Like baptism of desire I think it just snuck-in and no one really noticed because it sounds so nice and sweet, harmless but let an Orthodox priest get his hands on that and AHHHH!!!

Cowboy, I just accepted the title "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" without much consdideration but now you have me thinking a little more deeply.

My initial thoughts are, If Mary brought forth only the humanity of Christ I could see a problem with the title, but as we believe she brought forth the whole Christ both God and man (and actually holds the title of, Mother of God) then the union between Mary and the Holy Ghost must be a complete and unique union and "what God has joined together let no man seperate."

Regarding Joseph as the spouse of the Blessed Virgin, I don't see a contradiction in this either, for, as we rightly call our human father "Father" without denying that God is even more strictly our Father, so Mary being the wife of Joseph would not be in conflict with her being Spouse of the Holy Spirit in an even more real way.
And, as human espousal is only til death us do part, the espousal of Mary to the Holy Ghost is for all eternity.

These are my initial thoughts and I'm looking forward to hearing others and especially those with supporting references from Church traditional thinking.
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:53 pm

[quote="columba"]
cowboy wrote:
My initial thoughts are, If Mary brought forth only the humanity of Christ I could see a problem with the title, but as we believe she brought forth the whole Christ both God and man (and actually holds the title of, Mother of God) then the union between Mary and the Holy Ghost must be a complete and unique union and "what God has joined together let no man seperate."

I don't understand your point?

Only the Son became flesh and the Son proceeds from the Father not the Holy Spirit.

The point about Father is well taken but again if Jesus is one person and is conceived by the 3rd person then the Holy Spirit would be the Father of the Son since he would be proceeding from the Holy Spirit and not the Father.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  columba on Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:47 pm

[quote="cowboy"]
columba wrote:
cowboy wrote:
My initial thoughts are, If Mary brought forth only the humanity of Christ I could see a problem with the title, but as we believe she brought forth the whole Christ both God and man (and actually holds the title of, Mother of God) then the union between Mary and the Holy Ghost must be a complete and unique union and "what God has joined together let no man seperate."

I don't understand your point?

Only the Son became flesh and the Son proceeds from the Father not the Holy Spirit.

The point about Father is well taken but again if Jesus is one person and is conceived by the 3rd person then the Holy Spirit would be the Father of the Son since he would be proceeding from the Holy Spirit and not the Father.

This is a very important subject for me because I always invoke Our Lady as spouse of the Holy Ghost when I pray the 3rd glorious mystery and have done this for years.

My initial thoughts I admit, are not very well formed and need much elaboration. However, in dealing with only one aspect of the mystery (in isolation), the whole picture doesn't come into focus.

The Blessed Virgins relationship to each Person of the Trinity is unique among all creatures. She is true mother of the Son, true daughter of the Father (as in not by adoption but by birthright so to speak) and as Jesus is called the New Adam, Mary is also called the New Eve. and, as Eve was formed from the rib of Adam, she was one flesh with Adam in the same way as the two become one in the sacrament of matrimony. Therefore as Mary is one flesh with her Son Jesus, she could also be considered the Bride of Christ. Indeed the Church is called the Spotless Bride of Christ but Mary is signified as the spotless representation of the Church while also being called Mother of the Church.
In the same way, Christ proceeded from Mary (from her womb) but Mary also proceeded from Christ as in being created by Him. The Holy Ghost being the active principle of the Godhead while proceeding from the Father and the Son, also remains God, co-equal with the Father and the Son and as Thomas (or Augustine) says, "When one person of the Trinity acts, they All act.

What I'm trying to get at here is the inter-changeable terms. The Blessed Virgin could well be called "The Spouse of the Holy Trinity" and if she be that, then the Holy Ghost (being a person of the Trinity) has also espoused the Blessed Virgin.

I have a gut belief that this term "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" is a legitimate one and you know how hard gut feelings are to shift without concrete evidence to the contrary Smile
So far I have only a vague grasp on the matter, even concerning those concepts as stated above. How they'll stand up to proper theological scrutiny remains to be seen but I'll be following it all the way.
avatar
columba

Posts : 979
Reputation : 1068
Join date : 2010-12-18
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:29 pm

cowboy,

No, I am not in contact with Dr. Miravalle. I just took my classes and that was that. I just meant I still have my college notes to ruffle through. And while Dr. Miravalle does have many good things to say about Our Lady, I disagree with him about some Marian apparitions (especially Medjugorje); so I don't want you to think I was promoting him. (I still have to dig out my notes... perhaps this weekend, if you are still interested)

Secondly, the title "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" does not properly refer to the relationship of Mary and the Holy Spirit at the conception of Jesus, but to Mary's Immaculate Conception (at least, as I understand it, in the writings of St. Maximilian Kolbe). Also, the title is not a statement of the institution of matrimony, but (I suppose this falls into the "pious sentiment" idea, to a certain extent) to the intimate relationship that exists between Mary and the Holy Spirit (i.e., their relationship is so intimate that it is likened to a kind of spousal relation). Think of it like our relationship to Our Lord as members of the Church-- do we not call the Church "the Bride of Christ"? Thus we ourselves have a kind of spousal relationship to Our Lord even though there are many members who are married. One is a relation of institution (i.e., Sacrament of Matrimony), and the other is a relation by grace. (Therefore, no worries about plural marriages)

An excerpt from St. Maximilian Kolbe regarding Mary as spouse of the Holy Spirit (I apologize for the length)
"...Creatures, by following the natural law implanted in them by God, reach their perfection, become like Him, and go back to Him. Intelligent creatures love Him in a conscious manner; through this love they unite themselves more and more closely with Him, and so find their way back to Him. The creature most completely filled with this love, filled with God Himself, was the Immaculata, who never contracted the slightest stain of sin, who never departed in the least from God's will. United to the Holy Spirit as His spouse, she is one with God in an incomparably more perfect way than can be predicated of any other creature.
What sort of union is this? It is above all an interior union, a union of her essence with the "essence" of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in her, lives in her. This was true from the first instant of her existence. It was always true; it will always be true.
In what does this life of the Spirit in Mary consist? He Himself is uncreated Love in her; the Love of the Father and of the Son, the Love by which God loves Himself, the very love of the Most Holy Trinity. He is a fruitful Love, a "Conception". Among creatures made in God's image the union brought about by married love is the most intimate of all (cf. Mt. 19:6). In a much more precise, more interior, more essential manner, the Holy Spirit lives in the soul of the Immaculata, in the depths of her very being. He makes her fruitful, from the very first instant of her existence, all during her life, and for all eternity.
This eternal "Immaculate Conception" (which is the Holy Spirit) produces in an immaculate manner divine life itself in the womb (or depths) of Mary's soul, making her the Immaculate Conception, the human Immaculate Conception. And the virginal womb of Mary's body is kept sacred for Him; there He conceives in time--because everything that is material occurs in time--the human life of the Man-God.
And so the return to God (which is love), that is to say the equal and contrary reaction, follows a different path from that found in creation. The path of creation goes from the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit; this return trail goes from the Spirit through the Son back to the Father; in other words, by the Spirit the Son becomes incarnate in the womb of the Immaculata; and through this Son love returns to the Father.
And she (the Immaculata), grafted into the Love of the Blessed Trinity, becomes from the first moment of her existence and forever thereafter the "complement of the Blessed Trinity".
In the Holy Spirit's union with Mary we observe more than the love of two beings; in one there is all the love of the Blessed Trinity; in the other, all of creation's love. So it is that in this union heaven and earth are joined; all of heaven with all the earth, the totality of eternal love with the totality of created love. It is truly the summit of love.
At Lourdes, the Immaculata did not say of herself that she had been conceived immaculately, but, as St. Bernadette repeated it, "Que soy era immaculada councepciou": "I am the Immaculate Conception".
If among human beings the wife takes the name of her husband because she belongs to him, is one with him, becomes equal to him and is, with him, the source of new life, with how much greater reason should the name of the Holy Spirit, who is the divine Immaculate Conception, be used as the name of her in whom He lives as uncreated Love, the principle of life in the whole supernatural order of grace?" (Sketch, February 17, 1941) (Taken from Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit by Fr. H.M. Manteau-Bonamy, OP)
(please forgive any typos on my part!)



The power of the most high must be referring to God the Father or to God as Triune as well as the Holy Spirit being also the Triune God not the third Person, because the actions outside of the Trinity are done as one, but appropriation, their relation to each other with-in the life of God, are appropriated to the Person. To concieve the Son is the act of the Father even though He is making Him man it is still with-in the life of the Trinity because Jesus is True God and not outside the Trinitarian relationship.
I see your understanding here, however, I think you have to be careful since we confess 'qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto' in the Apostle's Creed.


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:23 pm

Came across a few more things to ponder...

From Pope Paul VI's Marialis Cultus
" It seems to us useful to add to this mention of the Christological orientation of devotion to the Blessed Virgin a reminder of the fittingness of giving prominence in this devotion to one of the essential facts of the Faith: the Person and work of the Holy Spirit. Theological reflection and the liturgy have in fact noted how the sanctifying intervention of the Spirit in the Virgin of Nazareth was a culminating moment of the Spirit's action in the history of salvation. Thus, for example, some Fathers and writers of the Church attributed to the work of the Spirit the original holiness of Mary, who was as it were "fashioned by the Holy Spirit into a kind of new substance and new creature."... Examining more deeply still the mystery of the Incarnation, they saw in the mysterious relationship between the Spirit and Mary an aspect redolent of marriage, poetically portrayed by Prudentius: "The unwed Virgin espoused the Spirit," and they called her the "Temple of the Holy Spirit," an expression that emphasizes the sacred character of the Virgin, now the permanent dwelling of the Spirit of God. Delving deeply into the doctrine of the Paraclete, they saw that from Him as from a spring there flowed forth the fullness of grace (cf. Lk. 1:28) and the abundance of gifts that adorned her. Thus they attributed to the Spirit the faith, hope and charity that animated the Virgin's heart, the strength that sustained her acceptance of the will of God, and the vigor that upheld her in her suffering at the foot of the cross. In Mary's prophetic canticle (cf. Lk. 1:46-55) they saw a special working of the Spirit who had spoken through the mouths of the prophets. Considering, finally, the presence of the Mother of Jesus in the Upper Room, where the Spirit came down upon the infant Church (cf Acts 1:12-14; 2:1-4), they enriched with new developments the ancient theme of Mary and the Church. Above all they had recourse to the Virgin's intercession in order to obtain from the Spirit the capacity for engendering Christ in their own soul, as is attested to by Saint Ildephonsus in a prayer of supplication, amazing in its doctrine and prayerful power: "I beg you, holy Virgin, that I may have Jesus from the Holy Spirit, by whom you brought Jesus forth. May my soul receive Jesus through the Holy Spirit by whom your flesh conceived Jesus.... May I love Jesus in the Holy Spirit in whom you adore Jesus as Lord and gaze upon Him as your Son."

Pope Pius IX's Ineffabilis Deus
"This doctrine so filled the minds and souls of our ancestors in the faith that a singular and truly marvelous style of speech came into vogue among them. They have frequently addressed the Mother of God as immaculate, as immaculate in every respect; innocent, and verily most innocent; spotless, and entirely spotless; holy and removed from every stain of sin; all pure, all stainless, the very model of purity and innocence; more beautiful than beauty, more lovely than loveliness; more holy than holiness, singularly holy and most pure in soul and body; the one who surpassed all integrity and virginity; the only one who has become the dwelling place of all the graces of the most Holy Spirit."

Pope John Paul II's Redemptoris Mater
(Pope John Paul II differs from the explanations of St. Maximilian Kolbe here by linking the spousal relationship at the Annunciation and not at her Immaculate Conception...)

"The Holy Spirit had already come down upon her, and she became his faithful spouse at the Annunciation, welcoming the Word of the true God, offering "the full submission of intellect and will...and freely assenting to the truth revealed by him," indeed abandoning herself totally to God through "the obedience of faith," whereby she replied to the angel: "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." The journey of faith made by Mary, whom we see praying in the Upper Room, is thus longer than that of the others gathered there: Mary "goes before them," "leads the way" for them."

"The first moment of submission to the one mediation "between God and men"-the mediation of Jesus Christ-is the Virgin of Nazareth's acceptance of motherhood. Mary consents to God's choice, in order to become through the power of the Holy Spirit the Mother of the Son of God. It can be said that a consent to motherhood is above all a result of her total selfgiving to God in virginity. Mary accepted her election as Mother of the Son of God, guided by spousal love, the love which totally "consecrates" a human being to God. By virtue of this love, Mary wished to be always and in all things "given to God," living in virginity. The words "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord" express the fact that from the outset she accepted and understood her own motherhood as a total gift of self, a gift of her person to the service of the saving plans of the Most High. And to the very end she lived her entire maternal sharing in the life of Jesus Christ, her Son, in a way that matched her vocation to virginity."

"Mary's motherhood, completely pervaded by her spousal attitude as the "handmaid of the Lord," constitutes the first and fundamental dimension of that mediation which the Church confesses and proclaims in her regard and continually "commends to the hearts of the faithful," since the Church has great trust in her. For it must be recognized that before anyone else it was God himself, the Eternal Father, who entrusted himself to the Virgin of Nazareth, giving her his own Son in the mystery of the Incarnation. Her election to the supreme office and dignity of Mother of the Son of God refers, on the ontological level, to the very reality of the union of the two natures in the person of the Word (hypostatic union). This basic fact of being the Mother of the Son of God is from the very beginning a complete openness to the person of Christ, to his whole work, to his whole mission. The words "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord" testify to Mary's openness of spirit: she perfectly unites in herself the love proper to virginity and the love characteristic of motherhood, which are joined and, as it were, fused together."

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  MRyan on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:39 pm

MarianLibrarian, thanks for the citations.

Before reading that you were going to supply some valued input, I was tempted to weigh-in with a back of the napkin observation that basically said that any reference to Mary as “Spouse of the Holy Spirit” cannot be taken literally, but must be taken as mystical imagery or in an analogous sense. Of course, the poetry of this imagery is most sublime, as your texts indicate.

Good reading.

avatar
MRyan

Posts : 2276
Reputation : 2448
Join date : 2010-12-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:58 pm

MarianLibrarian wrote:cowboy,

No, I am not in contact with Dr. Miravalle. I just took my classes and that was that. I just meant I still have my college notes to ruffle through. And while Dr. Miravalle does have many good things to say about Our Lady, I disagree with him about some Marian apparitions (especially Medjugorje); so I don't want you to think I was promoting him. (I still have to dig out my notes... perhaps this weekend, if you are still interested)

Secondly, the title "Spouse of the Holy Spirit" does not properly refer to the relationship of Mary and the Holy Spirit at the conception of Jesus, but to Mary's Immaculate Conception (at least, as I understand it, in the writings of St. Maximilian Kolbe). Also, the title is not a statement of the institution of matrimony, but (I suppose this falls into the "pious sentiment" idea, to a certain extent) to the intimate relationship that exists between Mary and the Holy Spirit (i.e., their relationship is so intimate that it is likened to a kind of spousal relation). Think of it like our relationship to Our Lord as members of the Church-- do we not call the Church "the Bride of Christ"? Thus we ourselves have a kind of spousal relationship to Our Lord even though there are many members who are married. One is a relation of institution (i.e., Sacrament of Matrimony), and the other is a relation by grace. (Therefore, no worries about plural marriages)

An excerpt from St. Maximilian Kolbe regarding Mary as spouse of the Holy Spirit (I apologize for the length)
"...Creatures, by following the natural law implanted in them by God, reach their perfection, become like Him, and go back to Him. Intelligent creatures love Him in a conscious manner; through this love they unite themselves more and more closely with Him, and so find their way back to Him. The creature most completely filled with this love, filled with God Himself, was the Immaculata, who never contracted the slightest stain of sin, who never departed in the least from God's will. United to the Holy Spirit as His spouse, she is one with God in an incomparably more perfect way than can be predicated of any other creature.
What sort of union is this? It is above all an interior union, a union of her essence with the "essence" of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in her, lives in her. This was true from the first instant of her existence. It was always true; it will always be true.
In what does this life of the Spirit in Mary consist? He Himself is uncreated Love in her; the Love of the Father and of the Son, the Love by which God loves Himself, the very love of the Most Holy Trinity. He is a fruitful Love, a "Conception". Among creatures made in God's image the union brought about by married love is the most intimate of all (cf. Mt. 19:6). In a much more precise, more interior, more essential manner, the Holy Spirit lives in the soul of the Immaculata, in the depths of her very being. He makes her fruitful, from the very first instant of her existence, all during her life, and for all eternity.
This eternal "Immaculate Conception" (which is the Holy Spirit) produces in an immaculate manner divine life itself in the womb (or depths) of Mary's soul, making her the Immaculate Conception, the human Immaculate Conception. And the virginal womb of Mary's body is kept sacred for Him; there He conceives in time--because everything that is material occurs in time--the human life of the Man-God.
And so the return to God (which is love), that is to say the equal and contrary reaction, follows a different path from that found in creation. The path of creation goes from the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit; this return trail goes from the Spirit through the Son back to the Father; in other words, by the Spirit the Son becomes incarnate in the womb of the Immaculata; and through this Son love returns to the Father.
And she (the Immaculata), grafted into the Love of the Blessed Trinity, becomes from the first moment of her existence and forever thereafter the "complement of the Blessed Trinity".
In the Holy Spirit's union with Mary we observe more than the love of two beings; in one there is all the love of the Blessed Trinity; in the other, all of creation's love. So it is that in this union heaven and earth are joined; all of heaven with all the earth, the totality of eternal love with the totality of created love. It is truly the summit of love.
At Lourdes, the Immaculata did not say of herself that she had been conceived immaculately, but, as St. Bernadette repeated it, "Que soy era immaculada councepciou": "I am the Immaculate Conception".
If among human beings the wife takes the name of her husband because she belongs to him, is one with him, becomes equal to him and is, with him, the source of new life, with how much greater reason should the name of the Holy Spirit, who is the divine Immaculate Conception, be used as the name of her in whom He lives as uncreated Love, the principle of life in the whole supernatural order of grace?" (Sketch, February 17, 1941) (Taken from Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit by Fr. H.M. Manteau-Bonamy, OP)
(please forgive any typos on my part!)



The power of the most high must be referring to God the Father or to God as Triune as well as the Holy Spirit being also the Triune God not the third Person, because the actions outside of the Trinity are done as one, but appropriation, their relation to each other with-in the life of God, are appropriated to the Person. To concieve the Son is the act of the Father even though He is making Him man it is still with-in the life of the Trinity because Jesus is True God and not outside the Trinitarian relationship.
I see your understanding here, however, I think you have to be careful since we confess 'qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto' in the Apostle's Creed.


Thanks for the post. I am not really sure if he is being clear. She became spouse because she was sanctified by the Holy Spirit from her conception? That would make her highly favored daughter not spouse.


As for the Apostles Creed we need to understand it as the Church understands it. I mean "Jesus descended into Hell" This seems wrong too, but when it is explained as the Limbo of the Fathers then it is clear.

Bill Strom is to be blamed because I read the Creed of Toledo on his site! Very Happy LOL
http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2011/05/ceed-of-teledo.html

Columba, I am not holding to this; I am just exploring it. I like to ask questions and thus understand things better. But these Greeks are really good at the Trinity and I think most Catholics, and priest for that matter, are kinda clueless.


ML, I think the Creed of Toledo is trying to clarify this "conceived by the Holy Spirit."

"38 Yet we must not believe that the Holy Spirit is Father of the Son,

because of the fact that Mary conceived

by the overshadowing of the same Holy Spirit,

lest we seem to assert that there are two Fathers of the Son,

which is certainly impious to say."



"44 Also we must believe that the entire
Trinity accomplished the Incarnation of the Son of God, because the
works of the Trinity are inseparable. "

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:27 pm

cowboy,

St. Maximilian Kolbe is speaking of the intimacy of the relationship between Mary and the Holy Spirit, not putting either under the institution of Holy Matrimony. Calling their love/union a spousal one is the closest analogy to describing the intimate union of their relationship... it is not meant for us to think that the Holy Spirit and Our Lady were married. It is one of those things where we have to tread lightly, it is true (in a sense (i.e., of the closeness of their relationship by grace), but not meant to be taken literally.

The writings of St. Maximilian Kolbe, Like St. Louis Marie de Montfort are pretty radical as regards Our Lady, but it really is necessary to get the broader context of St. Kolbe's understanding of the Most Holy Trinity, and especially of the Holy Spirit's being the "uncreated eternal conception", etc. I think if you really want to tackle this, you should read (at least) some of St. Maximilian's Kolbe's writings on the Immaculate Conception of the Our Lady and its relatedness to the 3rd Person of the Most Holy Trinity. The book I quoted from earlier is a good one, as well as The Kolbe Reader edited by Fr. Anselm Romb. Both books, I think, are published by Marytown Press.

As to the Creed... again, I think this is mainly a problem of seeing this spousal relationship existing because of the Annunciation... this is not the case for St. Kolbe (despite Pope John Paul II's encyclical... now there's a conundrum). For St. Kolbe, Mary has a spousal (i.e., a completely intimate interior) relationship with the Holy Spirit because of her Immaculate Conception (thus, from the first moment of her existence). This relationship does make her less a daughter (rather, it intensifies it), but (once again) we are not meant to take the idea of "spouse" literally, but instead as an expression of the deep intimacy which the spousal relationship conveys. Does this make sense? I am not sure I am explaining this well.

What did you think of the quotes from the Papal encyclicals?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:08 am

To tell you the truth I just didn't want to even look at JPII's stuff. He is as clear as Vat II which means he just obscures stuff instead of clarifies. I will have to get to that.

But I think it is dangerous for people to throw around this title with no real support from scripture or the Fathers. It just seems to me to breed confusion. The reason that spousal relationship is so intimate because it is sexual, no? That's the way I see it, and I think a majority of Catholics take this spousal to HS literally and they also think it is because Mary conceived Jesus.

Can the title be found in any tradition? Other than De Montfort, Kolby, and JPII?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:46 am

I will keep hunting through my Marian stuffs for you, cowboy. For the record, only the last few quotes were from Pope John Paul II.

As to you original concerns, I feel like those have been answered:
I was shocked to hear him say that Mary is Souse of the Holy Spirit. This seems aprox. to heresy. Since the Son is not generated by the Holy Spirit but by the Father.
Other than JPII, in the writings of St. Maximilian Kolbe, Mary is not spouse of the Spirit at the Annunciation, but from her Immaculate Conception (it is a spousal relationship of grace/intimacy, not institution). Thus, this does not effect Jesus' being eternally begotten of the Father.

Also Mary has only one spouse St. Joseph and to refer to her having 2 spouses seems pretty impious to me. Is she to be considered a bigamist?
Again, calling Mary "spouse" of the Holy Spirit is a relationship by grace, not by institution. Our Lady is not "married" to the Holy Spirit, she was only ever married to St. Joseph.


But now it seems like your concern is regarding the sexual connotation that "spouse" has, am I understanding you correctly? While it is true that part of the reason the spousal relationship is so intimate is through sexual intercourse, such physicality does not compromise the entirety of spousal intimacy. Conjugal love is an expression of spousal intimacy, but spousal intimacy is not composed of conjugal relations. There is much, much more to married life-- the spouses share a common life, they are spiritually tied to one another as helpmate, etc.

For the record, I don't think "spouse of the Holy Spirit" is a well known title to many Catholics at all, unless they've read St. Maximilian Kolbe.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:01 am

We can't well argue with Pope Leo XIII, can we?

Pope Leo XIII Divinum Illud Munus
"And now Our mind and heart turn back to those hopes with which We began, and for the accomplishment of which We earnestly pray, and will continue to pray, to the Holy Ghost. Unite, then, Venerable Brethren, your prayers with Ours, and at your exhortation let all Christian peoples add their prayers also, invoking the powerful and ever-acceptable intercession of the Blessed Virgin. You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between her and the Holy Ghost, so that she is justly called His Spouse. The intercession of the Blessed Virgin was of great avail both in the mystery of the Incarnation and in the coming of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles. May she continue to strengthen our prayers with her suffrages, that, in the midst of all the stress and trouble of the nations, those divine prodigies may be happily revived by the Holy Ghost, which were foretold in the words of David: "Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created, and Thou shalt renew the face of the earth" (Ps. ciii., 30)."


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:42 am

While I have been primarily focusing on the Popes and Councils... I have also run across the title used by St. Anselm, St. Alphonsus Liguori, St. Francis of Assisi, etc. and not only by Sts. Louis Marie de Montfort and Maximilian Kolbe.

Here is a bit from St. Alphonsus Liguori's The Glories of Mary
"Since, then, it was becoming that the Father should preserve Mary from sin as his daughter, and the Son as his Mother, it was also becoming that the Holy Ghost should preserve her as his spouse.
St. Augustine says that "Mary was that only one who merited to be called the Mother and Spouse of God" ("Haec est quae sola meruit Mater et Sponsa vocari"—Serm. 208, E. B. app.). For St. Anselm asserts that "the divine Spirit, the love itself of the Father and the Son, came porporally into Mary, and enriching her with graces above all creatures, reposed in her and made her his Spouse, the Queen of heaven and earth" ("Ipse Spiritus Dei, ipse Amor Patris et Filii, corporaliter venit in eam, singularique gratia prae omnibus requievit in ea, et Reginam coeli et terrae fecit eam"—De Excell. Virg. c. 4). He says that he came into her corporally, that is, as to the effect: for he came to form of her immaculate body the immaculate body of Jesus Christ, as the Archangel had already predicted to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee ("Spiritus Sanctus superveniet in te"—Luke, i. 35). And therefore it is, says St. Thomas, "that Mary is called the temple of the Lord, and the sacred resting-place of the Holy Ghost: for by the operation of the Holy Ghost she became the Mother of the Incarnate Word" ("Unde dicitur Templum Domini, Sacrarium Spiritus Sancti, quia concepit ex Spiritu Sancto"—Exp. In Sal. Ang.).
And now, had an excellent artist the power to make his bride such as he could represent her, what pains would he not take to render her as beautiful as possible! Who, then, can say that the Holy Ghost did otherwise with Mary, when he could make her who was to be his spouse as beautiful as it became him that she should be? Ah no! he acted as it became him to act; for this same Lord himself declares: Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee ("Tota pulchra es, Amica mea, et macula non est in te"—Cant. iv. 7). These words, say St. Ildephonsus and St. Thomas, are properly to be understood of Mary, as Cornelius à Lapide remarks; and St. Bernardine of Sienna (Pro Fest. V. M. s. 4, a. 2, c. 2), and St. Laurence Justinian (In Net. B. V.), assert that they are to be understood precisely as applying to her Immaculate Conception; whence Blessed Raymond Jordano addresses her, saying, "Thou art all fair, O most glorious Virgin, not in part, but wholly; and no stain of mortal, venial, or original sin is in thee" ("Tota pulchra es, Virgo gloriosissima! non in parte, sed in toto; et macula peccati, sive mortalis, sive venialis, sive originalis, non est in te"—Cont. de V. M. c. 2).
The Holy Ghost signified the same thing when he called this his spouse an enclosed garden and a sealed fountain: My sister, my spouse, is a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up ("Hortus conclusus, soror mea, Sponsa, Hortus conclusus, Fons signatus"—Cant. iv. 12). "Mary," says St. Sophronius, "was this enclosed garden and sealed fountain, into which no guile could enter, against which no fraud of the enemy could prevail, and who always was holy in mind and body" (Haec est Hortus conclusus, Fons signatus, ad quam nulli potuerunt doli irrumpere; nec praevaluit fraus inimici, sed permansit sancta mente et corpore"—De Assumpt.). St. Bernard likewise says, addressing the Blessed Virgin, "Thou art an enclosed garden, into which the sinner's hand has never entered to pluck its flowers" ("Hortus conclusus tu es, ad quem deflorandum manus peccatorum nunquam introivit"—Depr. ad. gl. V.).
We know that this divine Spouse loved Mary more than all the other saints and angels put together, as Father Suarez (De Inc. p. 2, d. 18, s. 4), with St. Laurence Justinian, and others, assert. He loved her from the very beginning, and exalted her in sanctity above all others, as it is expressed by David in the Psalms: The foundations thereof are in the holy mountains; the Lord loveth the gates of Sion above all the tabernacles of Jacob . . . a man is born in her, and the Highest Himself hath founded her ("Fundamenta ejus in moontibus sanctis; diligit Dominus portus Sion super omnia tabernacula Jacob . . . Homo natus est in ea; et ipse fundavit eam Altissimus"—Ps. lxxxvi. 1). Words which all signify that Mary was holy from her conception. The same thing is signified by other passages addressed to her by the Holy Ghost. In Proverbs we read: Many daughters have gathered together riches: thou hast surpassed them all ("Multae filiae congregaverunt divitias: tu supergressa es universas"—Prov. xxxi. 29). If Mary has surpassed all others in the riches of grace, she must have had original justice, as Adam and the angels had it. In the Canticles we read, There are . . . young maidens without number. One is my dove, my perfect one (in the Hebrew it is my entire, my immaculate one) is but one, she is the only one of her mother (Adolescentularum non est numerus; una est columba mea, perfecta mea, una est matris suae"—Cant. vi. 7). All just souls are daughters of divine grace; but amongst these Mary was the dove without the gall of sin, the perfect one without spot in her origin, the one conceived in grace.
Hence it is that the angel, before she became the Mother of God, already found her full of grace, and thus saluted her, Hail, full of grace; on which words St. Sophronius writes, that "grace is given partially to other saints, but to the Blessed Virgin all was given" ("Bene 'Plena,' quia caeteris per partes praestatur, Mariae vero simul se tota infudit plenitude gratiae"—De Assumpt.). So much so, says St. Thomas, that "grace not only rendered the soul, but even the flesh of mary holy, so that this Blessed Virgin might be able to clothe the Eternal Word with it" ("Anima Beatae Virginis ita fuit plena, quod ex ea refudit gratia in carnem, ut de ipsa conciperet Deum"—Exp. In Sal. Ang.). Now all this leads us to the conclusion that Mary, from the moment of her conception, was enriched and filled with divine grace by the Holy Ghost, as Peter of Celles remarks, "the plenitude of grace was in her; for from the very moment of her conception the whole grace of the divinity overflowed upon her, by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost" ("Simul in ea collecta est gratiae plenitude, quia ab exordio suae conceptionis, aspersione Spiritus Sancti, tota Deitatis gratia est superfusa"—De Pan. c. 12). Hence St. Peter Damian says, "that the Holy Spirit was about to bear her off entirely to himself, who was chosen and preëlected by God" ("A Deo electam et praeelectam, totam eam rapturus erat sibi Spiritus Sanctus"—De Annunt.). The saint says "to bear her off," to denote the holy velocity of the divine Spirit in being beforehand in making this Spouse his own before Lucifer should take possession of her."

(I have also noticed that the Saints have all related Mary's being "spouse" to her Immaculate Conception, and not to the Annunciation (so JPII seems to be out of sync there))

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Allie on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:50 am

cowboy wrote:
Can the title be found in any tradition? Other than De Montfort, Kolby, and JPII?

St. Francis of Assisi (although perhaps he is too pious for you all, lol).

Being that St.Maximillian was a Franciscan, this must have been a large part of the impetus in his meditating and writing about Mary and her relationship to the Holy Spirit (and therefore the Triune God).

And as ML has been writing so graciously, this is not a "natural" relationship/marriage/espousal of Mary to the Holy Spirit, but a supernatural and mystical union that the term "spouse" does not fully give justice to. But signifies the closest union of the creature (Mary) with the Uncreated God that is possible.


edit: just saw ML's post after I posted this...great information!

avatar
Allie

Posts : 100
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2010-12-20
Location : southern Ohio, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:58 pm

Thanks ML! Sorry if I over reacted. Some of your explanations have helped. I am more at peace with it seeing the Leo XIII quote. I just get nervous about just accepting things, without understanding. I would still like to understand it better but it was beneficial because I learned more about marriage. Embarassed

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:30 pm

No worries, cowboy. It is a great good to study the Faith! And it was fun for me to hunt through all my Marian books, etc. study ... So I say, bring it on!

If you have the time, I would say check out one of the books compiled of St. Maximilian Kolbe's writings (especially the book, The Immaculate Conception and the Holy Spirit). He is the Saint which most thoroughly breaks down the title, though St. Alphonsus Liguori does a good job in The Glories of Mary as well.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Father Joseph and the Damsel of Israel

Post  RescuedBYMary on Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:10 am

Guest wrote:I was listening to EWTN radio and Mark Marivalle was on. I really liked his book on the Co-Redemtrix but in his comments during the program I was shocked to hear him say that Mary is Souse of the Holy Spirit. This seems aprox. to heresy. Since the Son is not generated by the  Holy Spirit but by the Father. I have been studying the Trinity lately and have been in some debates with Greek Orthodox, so one needs to study the Trinity for that. Anyway the creed of Toledo, which the Orthodox HATE! Has always been considered a true and very sound theological treatment of the Trinity. And in there is explains that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit but this doesn't refer to the 3rd person but to the Triune God in His power.
Also Mary has only one spouse St. Joseph and to refer to her having 2 spouses seems pretty impious to me. Is she to be considered a bigamist?

Interested in your feed back? Am I wrong and how?





FATHER JOSEPH   and   THE  DAMSEL OF ISRAEL



Saint Peter said of David, “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;…”.

According to the ‘flesh’, the scripture teaches, Christ would be raised up.  But Christ was not of the flesh of David, how do we explain this?

Saint Joseph was a descendant of Solomon, and any son of his would be disqualified from being King in Israel as a result of the wickedness of the kings of Israel before the Babylonian captivity. [Jer. 22:24-30]

“As I live, saith the Lord, if Jechonias the son of Joakim the king of Juda were a ring on my right hand, I would pluck him thence.  And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand of them whose face thou fearest, and into the hand of Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans.   And I will send thee, and thy mother that bore thee, into a strange country, in which you were not born, and there you shall die:  And they shall not return into the land, whereunto they lift up their mind to return thither.  Is this man Jechonias an earthen and a broken vessel? is he a vessel wherein there is no pleasure? why are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?  O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord.  Thus saith the Lord: Write this man barren, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for there shall not be a man of his seed that shall sit upon the throne of David, and have power any more in Juda.”

The Scripture however uses Joseph’s blood line to establish Christ’s right to the throne…

“And Josias begot Jechonias and his brethren in the transmigration of Babylon.  And after the transmigration of Babylon, Jechonias begot Salathiel… And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. ”    [Matthew 1:11-16]

The question is, how does Christ establish His right to the throne if not through Saint Joseph’s lineage back to King David?

Furthermore, if Christ had none of Joseph’s blood in His veins – whose blood was it?


Consider the Gospel according to Saint Luke – Chapter 1:26-35

“And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.  And of his kingdom there shall be no end.  And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

It’s clear from Saint Luke’s account of Mary’s visitation from the Angel Gabriel that Christ was conceived of a Virgin, the Virgin Mary.  Saint Joseph was not involved in any way, knew nothing of it until he himself received an angelic visitation.

“But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. “     [Matthew, Chapter 1:20]


Christ was conceived within the womb of Mary in a supernatural way that defies explanation.  It is a dogma of our faith.


This is where the Blood of Christ comes from – Heaven;   His right to the throne, from God.


In the nucleus of the cell, the chromosomes are grouped in 23 pairs.  22 of these pairs are identical to each other.  The 23rd chromosome is either a pair of X chromosomes, or a pairing of an X and a Y chromosome.  If it’s two X chromosomes than the baby is a female – If an X and a Y then the baby is a male.

The female egg has 22 pairs of chromosomes and an X chromosome.  The male seed has 22 pairs of chromosomes and either as X or a Y chromosome.  All of these chromosomes separate and then one of the pairs joins the counterpart from the other sex.  When the XY chromosome in the seed separates there is no genetic transfer, as in the separation of the double X in the egg.  All of these chromosomes join up again in fertilization and determine the sex of the baby.  In any case, the genetic information needed to create blood comes from the seed and not the egg.

In addition to the DNA contributed by the seed, it may also contribute some cellular machinery necessary for incorporation of the male donor DNA into the zygote genome and possibly some messenger RNA. It does not contribute blood, only the potential for the developing embryo to synthesize its own blood based on the differentiation program contained in its DNA.

These 46 tiny structures in the cell nucleus called chromosomes are comprised of deoxyribonucleic acid or DNA.  It is our genetic instructions for life.  And since Christ was the Son of God, He was a male and had a Y chromosome, and since He was a human man and had blood in His veins, this blood of necessity came from something other than the egg of Mary.  Several of the genes on the Y chromosome that concern male development have been identified and located but the “Master” gene has proven to be illusive. (Pun intended)

The Y chromosome in a man’s seed is an almost exact copy of the Y chromosome in the cells of his body.  This is because, the XY split in the man’s seed does not transfer information very easily so all of his sons will carry this same Y chromosome; all the way back to Adam.

The mitochondria of the cell, outside of the nucleus, are where the genetic history of the woman can be found, in their mitochondrial DNA.  The seed’s mitochondria are discarded after fertilization, with only the female mitochondria in the new cell.  This can trace each man woman and child back to Eve.


“For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.”  [Hebrews 4:15]

God became a man, that men might become gods.


During gestation there is no blood transfer from the mother to the baby within the womb.  The membrane of the embryonic sack does not allow blood to be transferred from mother to child, only the nutrients necessary for the baby to thrive and grow to maturity.


“For thou art he that hast drawn me out of the womb: my hope from the breasts of my mother.  I was cast upon thee from the womb. From my mother's womb thou art my God,”  [Palms 21:10-11]


"And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.

But he said:, Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it."
[Luke 11;27-28]

Our Blessed Saviour would have this woman, and all of us realize that is was His Mother that He was referring to in Her readiness and obedience to hear and keep the Words of Her Son, the Word to Whom She Herself had given Flesh, that was much more of a sustenance to Him than the milk of Her breasts.  For it was Her pulsating Immaculate and sinless Heart from which flowed the necessary nutrients to produce the life giving Milk of the Word for The Babe who would become the son of man.  


                                                                                                                                                 
   

For we are saved by hope... [Romans 8:24]
                           
        The hope of the milk of the word.          

               
And hence the devotion to  


                                 
           "Our Lady of Milk"                                                                                        
                 
                   
Our Lady of La Leche is the first shrine dedicated to
Our Blessed Mother in the United States!
       



missionandshrine . org



The Holiness between Mother and Child in this moment is unspeakable.       It is inutterable.



 
We are thus left with the question of the Blood of Christ and its origin.  The baby’s blood does not come from the mother’s egg during fertilization and the mother’s blood does not mix with the baby’s blood during pregnancy.  


It is interesting to note; however, that during childbirth the baby’s blood is incorporated within the mother’s body in a certain way.  Christ’s Blood was inside the body of Mary - not the other way around.


It truly is a mystery, life that is - And the origin of Christ’s Precious Holy Blood that was poured out for our salvation…?

So then, where did Jesus Christ get His Blood?


Let us consider the possibility that God must have specially created that part of Christ's DNA - de novo.


In general usage, de novo is a Latin expression meaning "from the beginning," "afresh," "anew," "beginning again." It may refer to:

  en . wikipedia . org/wiki/De_novo

In bioinformatics, de novo is a form of sequencing, as in "de novo peptide sequencing." De novo may also be a term used to define methods for making predictions about biological features using only a computational model without extrinsic comparison to existing data. In this context, it may be sometimes interchangeable with the Latin term ab initio.

en . wikipedia . org/wiki/Ab_initio

The Latin term ab initio means from the beginning and is used in several contexts:

In bioinformatics: a term used to define methods for making predictions about biological features using only a computational model without extrinsic comparison to existing data. In this context, it may be sometimes interchangeable with the Latin term de novo.

en . wikipedia . org/wiki/Bioinformatics


So where did Jesus Christ get His Holy Precious Blood?  De novo??  Hmmm?


The concept as articulated is fascinating, how a scientific mind that has been influenced by theological considerations would think of Christ’s origins in this way.  De novo - "from the beginning," "afresh," "anew," "beginning again.”

I do need to point out however that the scripture clearly teaches that all of creation was completed on the sixth day.  Nothing has been created by God since then, including any de novo creation it would seem.
So where then did Jesus Christ get His Blood?


This is where the Blood of Christ comes from – Heaven;   His right to the throne, from God.



In conclusion: God created Adam, and then Eve from Adam’s rib.  And thus started the human race, with the blood of Adam, and not Eve, flowing in the veins of every man, woman and child, except Christ!


And thus, once again, scientific discovery proves Catholic Dogma.  Original sin is passed on to Adam’s posterity through Adam and not Eve, although it was Eve who was deceived and not Adam.  It was Eve who was taken in the transgression, nevertheless sin entered into the world by one man, Adam.  And death reigned even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who was the figure of him that was to come.


So now, let us return our attention to the issue of tracing Joseph’s lineage back to King David to establish Christ’s right to the throne.


As stated earlier, any son of Saint Joseph according to the flesh would be disqualified from being King in Israel [Jeremias 22:24-30].  But yet the first chapter of Saint Matthew’s Gospel uses Joseph’s lineage to establish this very thing.  And Saint Peter himself attests to this fact; that God would raise up Christ to sit on David’s throne according to the flesh.  How then does Christ assert His right to the throne of His father David if He is not of his flesh?


“And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying: What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him: David's.  He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying: The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word; neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.   [Matthew, Chapter 22: 41-46]


How is it that Christ is the son of David and yet his Lord?  Christ is David’s son because his lineage is traced back to him through Saint Joseph according to the flesh, but the Royalty of King David is transferred to Christ from Joseph through his virginal betrothal engagement to Saint Mary.  

The man Jesus Christ is of the flesh of Mary His Mother, not Joseph, but yet His royalty is obtained from King David through Joseph’s one-flesh marriage to Mary.  Joseph and Mary were One-Flesh.  And Christ received His flesh from Saint Mary.  

It was the Virginal Marriage bond between Joseph and Mary that allowed Christ to obtain Royalty according to the flesh.  Christ received His Royal Flesh from Mary who became Royalty through Her Marriage to Joseph who in turn could trace his lineage back to King David.


That means that Saint Joseph was King of Israel and passed this Title on to his Son Jesus Christ upon his death.       Think about that…


Jesus, The King of the Jews, was the inscription above Golgotha's Cross: What I have written I have written,  Pontius Pilate was quoted as having said, after he washed his hands and sealed his fate...  

Say not that He was, but only that He had said that he was!  But it was to late.  It was finished.

Christ had Truly entered into His Kingdom of His Heavenly Father, as He hung from a cross overlooking a valley in Nazareth where lay buried His beloved Saint father Joseph.  

Saint Joseph, The King of Israel who had raised up a God for a King.


There is now no obstacle to Christ assuming the throne of David, a man after God’s own Heart.  He was indeed a descendant of King David without a drop of his blood in His Heart!  His Royalty was obtained from His father’s lineage back to David it’s true; but then transferred by marriage through Saint Mary, having obtained Her flesh as His own and not Joseph’s when Mary gave Her yes to Her Sovereign at the words of Saint Gabriel, “Hail, full of Grace!”  - Who brought the Blood of Christ with Him, for the Holy One conceived within Her, was of the Holy Ghost!


Joseph’s marriage to Mary was a Royal Marriage between the King of Israel and his Queen, Queen Mary.  And their Divine Son was the Heir to the Throne.


Christ truly can claim His right to the throne of His father David, because He received His royalty according to the flesh from His Mother, who in turn had received it from Saint Joseph through their virginal one-flesh marriage bond.


This is how Christ can be the son of David and yet be his Lord.  He was indeed the son of David according to the flesh, having received all of His flesh from His Mother.  And it was Royal flesh because Mary was one-flesh with Saint Joseph, the King of Israel!  

The two become one-flesh.  


And He was David’s Lord because His Blood came from another world – It came from Heaven!


But perhaps a more intriguing question still, is not how King David can have a Son who is his Lord; but rather, how can Joseph have a Son who is his King?



How can a carpenter‘s Son become King – of all of Israel?  Just who was this man, Saint Joseph?  A King by needs be, must have a father for his King.  He must have a King for a father, that is.  But this is exactly what Jesus had; for He was the Prince of Peace and His Mother a Queen!


A King has a Prince for a Son.  O Saint Joseph! Saint Joseph! The King of Kings and Lord of Lords you had for a Son – And what does that make of thee!?!


I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.  [Genesis 3:15]

This verse of Scripture reveals the Proto-evangelium or first Gospel where we see Mary crushing the head of the serpent by Her seed Jesus Christ when He deals the death blow at the Cross.

 
But wait, let’s back up and consider the creation account of [Genesis 2:24] for a moment:

“Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam: and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it. And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam.  And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Wherefore a man shall leave father and Mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.”   [Genesis, Chapter 2:21-24]

Christ we know was the second Adam, and Mary the second Eve.  She reversed what our first mother had said.  Her yes opened the way for our salvation.

Adam we see, and of Eve we've taken notice; but what of this other man in these verses?  “...a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife:”  A man?  What man?  It is none other than Saint Joseph.  And the marriage spoken of here is the one between Joseph and Mary.



                                         Genesis 3:15 is often referred to as:

                                  “THE PROTOEVANGELIUM OR FIRST GOSPEL"


Genesis 2:24 is a foreshadowing of the marriage between Saint Mary and Her Joseph,
just as sure as

Genesis 3:15 is where we see Christ and His Mary.


Genesis 2:24 can be referred to as:

"THE 'PROTOMARITO' OR 'FIRST MARRIAGE'"  ~ RbM



Perhaps another look at Ephesians chapter five would be in order here:

"Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.  Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:

That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish.  So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself.  For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church."              [Ephesians 5:22-32]


Saint Paul hearkens back to the Genesis account cited before to describe the relationship between Christ and His Church.  For “this cause” he says.  What cause?  For the establishment of the Sacrament of marriage, for without it there is no Catholic Religion!

Many still find this a “Mystery” when the Apostle Paul speaks concerning Christ and the Church.  But the Mystery becomes a Sacrament when we understand the preceding verse:


“For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh.” [Ephesians 5:31]


This is the cause, or reason, for the betrothal of Joseph and Mary.  Christ must be born with both a Mother and a father and the two must be husband and wife.  This is unique in all of human history, a virginal marriage that leads to a virginal birth.  

Only the betrothal period of engagement within Jewish culture could make this possible.  Joseph and Mary were married.  Mary was betrothed to Joseph in marriage before Her visitation from the Angel Gabriel.  


She was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost to conceive Her own Savoiur, only after She was given to Saint Joseph in marriage.  Mary gave Her Immaculate Heart to Her Saviour, only after She had given it in marriage to Saint Joseph.

Her first Love was and always will be Saint Joseph!

Christ was conceived under the most unusual of circumstances to the modern reader.  Peculiar to Jewish custom was the betrothal period of engagement.  No other culture practiced it in this way because it developed as a direct result of Abraham’s God and His influence in his future generations.  We can see it clearly, contained in the account of Genesis if looked for carefully.  We see evidence of it throughout Old Testament Scripture – the betrothal.

The betrothal period of engagement is interwoven into the tapestry of the creation account as an expression of the Divine Nature.  And we see it manifested through the marriage of Saint Mary and Joseph, King of a new Kingdom on earth.

It was during this time of engagement, usually about a year, that the two who were to consummate their marriage at a future date were considered legally married for all intents and purposes.  The two were married in the eyes of the law, and although the marriage was not yet consummated, it was considered to be valid and legally binding, requiring a legal decree of divorce in order to end it.

It was during this betrothal period of engagement between Joseph and Mary that Christ was conceived within the womb of Saint Mary.  No other arrangement would have been acceptable, other than for the Christ Child to be born to both a Mother and a father, and for the two to be one-flesh; in a marriage that was valid in the eyes of God and yet not be consummated.

Nothing else could have made it possible for a Virgin to be legally married and to conceive of the Holy Ghost, than for Joseph and Mary to be in a betrothal period of engagement.  
The two became one-flesh, and what God had joined together no man could separate.  
The fulfillment of [Genesis 2:24].

John the Baptist cry in the wilderness announced the end of the law through the prophets and ushered in the Grace and Truth that was to come through Jesus Christ.  

Behold the Kingdom of God is among you!  
It was this Kingdom that Saint Joseph ruled over from a little house,
in a town called Nazareth.

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he." [Matthew 11:11]


Christ was referring here to none other than His father, Saint Joseph!



This idea “to cleave” or to be joined together is fundamental to the Hebrew concept of true religion.  It is used to describe the kind of relationship the Israelite's were to have with God and can be seen throughout the Book of Deuteronomy, in chapter 13:4 as one example:

“Follow the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and hear his voice: him you shall serve, and to him you shall cleave.”


And it is used in the Book of Joshua chapter 22:5, alongside other phrases such as love the Lord your God, walk in all His ways, keep all of His commandments, and serve Him with all your heart and soul.

“Yet so that you observe attentively, and in work fulfill the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you: that you love the Lord your God, and walk in all his ways, and keep all his commandments, and cleave to him, and serve him with all your heart, and with all your soul.”


To “cleave” unto the Lord is the term used to describe the relationship between God and His chosen people as well as the term used to describe the relationship between husband and wife that results in the two becoming one-flesh.

It holds true for the body of Christ as well:

“Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.”  [Ephisians 5:30]



“And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.”  [Genesis 2:23-24]

Now we can begin to see from this Old Testament covenant theology that bone and flesh as it is used in Scripture denotes kinship or blood relation.  And so it was with Adam and Eve:



The marriage vow creates a bond that is closer than blood relations.



Cleave:  To “cling” or “stick to someone” establishes the idea of the one-flesh bond in Genesis chapter two.


Judah “stuck to” David their King during Sheba’s revolt in II Samuel chapter 20:1-2.

“And there happened to be there a man of Belial, whose name was Seba, the son of Bochri, a man of Jemini: and he sounded the trumpet, and said: We have no part in David, nor inheritance in the son of Isai: return to thy dwellings, O Israel.] And all Israel departed from David, and followed Seba the son of Bochri: but the men of Juda stuck to their king from the Jordan unto Jerusalem.”  


Joseph and Mary fulfill this prophecy in Genesis of the two becoming one-flesh.  The Royal blood line remains in tack from King David all the way to Saint Joseph through Mary to Christ.  The one-flesh marriage bond is closer that blood relations, and since Mary was in a one-flesh marriage with Saint Joseph, She became Royalty Herself, and Jesus the Christ then receives his Holy Spotless Royal bone and flesh through His conception in the womb of His Mother, Joseph’s Spouse; and His Blood is of the Holy Ghost, so He escapes the curse of Jechonias, it could not be imposed upon Him.  [Matthew 1:11]





FATHER JOSEPH  and  THE DAMSEL OF ISRAEL


To give up his right, to his Virgin Wife,
Is a request only the Godhead could have made,
Of a man of great faith, Father Joseph was his name,
A simple carpenter by trade.

Now the
Israeli Messiah, who first was a Child,
Through a betrothal commitment was conceived.
His Mother was chosen, but a father was needed,
It could have been no other way.

For the Christ Child must be born with both a Mother and father,
And the two must be husband and Wife.

For the plan of the ages, the salvation of man,
Would require that one man should be bidden.
A great man of faith, Father Joseph was his name,
A simple carpenter by trade.

And being great with Child, and not of his own,
What could we expect him to believe...

For being mindful to put his betrothed Wife away,
And persuaded again in a dream.

The Damsel of Israel is beloved anyway,
By this great man of faith, Father Joseph was his name.

For he could have said no, and been just in doing so,
But instead, he chose to believe.


~ RbM

RescuedBYMary

Posts : 1
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2015-01-02

Back to top Go down

Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  George Brenner on Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:47 am

As far as I know the Catholic Church has not proclaimed as doctrine a stance on this issue to be accepted as an article of Faith for all to believe. Yet this was a spiritual and earthly miracle and occurrence in time to ponder. Only my opinion, subject to error but it appears that for the only time in human history that the blood that has been tested of Jesus from the shroud of Turin, the cave and the Ark of the covenant as proclaimed by some only contains 24 chromosomes and not the 46 which exists in all humans; 23 from the man and 23 from the woman plus the X or Y chromosome that determines the sex as provided by the male The 24 th chromosome in Jesus's case was the "Y" chromosome which determined the male sex. It appears supernaturally and miraculously that the "Y" chromosome was provided by the Holy Ghost.

The beauty of the Crucifix bearing INRI, 'Jesus of Nazareth , King of the Jews' is that quite simply as we just heard in the Gospel, Jesus was not only the spiritual King of the Jews and all peoples but quite literally of the direct lineage that specifically names Joseph in the royal line of succession and thus Jesus as literally the earthly King of the Jews.

avatar
George Brenner

Posts : 604
Reputation : 674
Join date : 2011-09-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Mary Spouse of the Holy Spirit prox. heresy!?

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum