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Vatican Council II does not contradict traditionall teaching on other religions

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Vatican Council II does not contradict traditionall teaching on other religions

Post  Lionel Andrades on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:52 am

Vatican Council II does not contradict the traditional teaching on other religions: message for Econe


Vatican Council II does not contradict the traditional teaching on other religions.Econe needs to cite contrary text.

Two priests of the Society of St.Pius X(SSPX) in Rome, over the last two days, indicate that Vatican Council II agrees with the traditional teaching on other religions. Since Vatican Council II does not mention any case of salvation which is not implicit. There is no case of salvation mentioned in the text of the Council which indicates there are persons in 2013 who are dead and now saved and who are visible to us. So there is no known salvation outside the Church. Every one needs to be a visible member of the Church, with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7) to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
So the SSPX leadership at Econe would have to review its position on other religions. Or, provide if they can, any reference in Vatican Council II which contradicts the centuries old traditional teaching .

Even the Society's USA website in the article 'Is the SSPX in heresy?' could not cite any text to show Vatican Council II has changed the Church's teachings on other religions and outside the church there is no salvation.

In the past Econe assumed the Council contradicted the traditional teaching on other religions, since it was assumed that implicit salvation was explicit.

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Re: Vatican Council II does not contradict traditionall teaching on other religions

Post  MRyan on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:48 pm

Lionel Andrades wrote: Since Vatican Council II does not mention any case of salvation which is not implicit. There is no case of salvation mentioned in the text of the Council which indicates there are persons in 2013 who are dead and now saved and who are visible to us. So there is no known salvation outside the Church. Every one needs to be a visible member of the Church, with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7) to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
Lionel, it is true that "Every one needs to be a visible member of the Church, with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7) to go to Heaven and avoid Hell."

But, the institutional helps to salvation (the sacraments and the institutional Church) are not intrinsic to salvation (as are faith, hope, charity and regeneration), the necessities of which may be fulfilled by the dispositions themselves that would otherwise render the institutional remedies efficacious for salvation.

And there is no divine or magisterial requirement whatsoever that says any given soul must be “visible to us” if he is to be joined to the Church by the invisible bonds of faith and charity should the external bonds not be realized through no fault of one's own.

Contrary to your assertion, "the text of the Council" make this clear:

Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."(17) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity. (Ad Gentes, Decree on the Missionary Activity of the Church, Promulgated by His Holiness, Pope Paul VI On December 7, 1965.
Nowhere does Ad Gentes or any other Council document suggest that those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel must find the (visible) institutional Church before they can be saved, but only that they “find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6)”.

This understanding was confirmed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger when he was Prefect for The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith with its publication of Dominus Iesus, "On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church", which was approved by Pope JPII, and which declared:

20… For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, "salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.

21. With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it "in ways known to himself".
Your argument reminds me of the old "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" philosophical question that, if you were to be consistent, you would answer in the negative.

But the tree that falls in the forest may be likened to the pagan child who reaches the age of reason and falls to death after having grown up without “faith by hearing”. Just as a tree makes sound waves regardless if there is anyone to hear it, our Lord’s hears it, and ordained it. If, as St. Thomas teaches, this child turned his mind to God in so far as grace allowed him, and opted for the good, he would be infused with sanctifying grace and would be assured of salvation if he died in that state.

The fact that he was not a visible member of the Church, or was not visible to us, is entirely irrelevant to his unity with the Mystical Body in voto, and his salvation.
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Re: Vatican Council II does not contradict traditionall teaching on other religions

Post  Lionel Andrades on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:04 am

MRyan
it is true that "Every one needs to be a visible member of the Church, with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7) to go to Heaven and avoid Hell."
Lionel:
Yes we agree here.

The fact that he was not a visible member of the Church, or was not visible to us, is entirely irrelevant to his unity with the Mystical Body in voto, and his salvation.

Lionel:
Yes if someone is saved as a visible member of the Church or if some one is not saved it would be known only to God and so it is irrelevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Who this person is and if he is in unity with the Mystical Body would be known only to God.

God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6),

Lionel:
Yes in ways 'known to Himself' God can choose to save those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel in a way known to God. Again it is irrelevant to the dogma since we do not know these cases for them to be exceptions.


Nowhere does Ad Gentes or any other Council document suggest that those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel must find the (visible) institutional Church before they can be saved, but only that they “find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6)”.

Lionel
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved...-Ad Gentes 7. The subject is salvation.
This same passage is cited in the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the sub title Outside the Church No Salvation (CCC 846).



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Re: Vatican Council II does not contradict traditionall teaching on other religions

Post  George Brenner on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:07 pm

Lionel,

Three things: 1. Search your soul. From what I read from Columba's post an apology in private and/or public is probably due. Many of us have apologized to each other repeatedly for numerous reasons, mainly because we are human.

2. Having said that and praying that this issue is resolved....Welcome back to this forum. Like many that post here, you put a great deal of prayer and work into your posts.




3. Lionel posted



God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6)


I reflected and prayed on these words yet again and find that just as MRyan has explained over and over again and as Father Feeney has said teach the faith and leave the mercies to God in reference to baptism of blood, baptism of desire and invincible ignorance as taught by the Church.

I may be overly confident but I believe that the rupture between SSPX and the Vatican with the help from the Holy Ghost will be resolved according to the will of God. Lionel you have spent much time on this issue and I know of your countless conversations with many in Rome. It seems as though that there is wide spread confusion on so many issues and that many do believe that it is permissible or accurate to teach or worse be silent on teaching our faith while at the same time believing, leaving , praying and hoping that souls do find Salvation through baptism of blood, baptism of desire and Invincible Ignorance as Hebrews says " in ways known to God. " Powerful words in Hebrews and we must not question God.

There apparently was a very saintly woman in the village and many had told the good priest about her. The Priest decided to pay her a visit. When the Priest arrived at the women's home he greeted her by saying , are you the one they call the saint of the village? The women answered yes Father at which time the priest quietly left her home.


JMJ,

George



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Re: Vatican Council II does not contradict traditionall teaching on other religions

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