The Church...The Nightclub...Denver, Colorado

A co-worker told me about this former Catholic Church in Denver, Colorado which is now a nightclub. Take a sad look at the video, and at the "22 Upcoming Events."

http://www.coclubs.com/venue/detail/the-church

I believe there is a Church like this in L.A. too. There is another one somewhere else in the Western states that is a brewery now.

I suspect that if this crisis of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus denial keeps going on, we are going to see a lot more of this in the future, especially when the baby-boomers start nearing their 70's and 80's.

Forum Janitor wrote:I believe there is a Church like this in L.A. too. There is another one somewhere else in the Western states that is a brewery now.

I suspect that if this crisis of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus denial keeps going on, we are going to see a lot more of this in the future, especially when the baby-boomers start nearing their 70's and 80's.

Rasha,

I was thinking of starting a thread where we could attempt to pinpoint the actual Crisis itself. So many accusations of various kinds of rot within the Church as being the Crisis, in the end, can be seen as merely effects or manifestations of the Crisis, and not the actual Crisis itself. What do you think is the actual cause/Crisis itself?

I think it all goes back to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus denial, because if there is salvation outside the Church, going to Church, being Catholic, etc is kind of meaningless.

As to what is causing the crisis, I think we will know that only after we die. Ultimately it is the devil. Why God is allowing it is another question.

Our favorite FSSP priest has some answers as to how the crisis can be stopped.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20070311-Mission-Prelude-to-the-Mission.html

The crisis I think is two fold and connected. First the acceptance of evolution of doctrine and second rejection of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.
The reason people reject Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is ultimately because of the acceptance of the evolution of doctrine.
If doctrine can evolve then nothing can be sure and the "Church" speaks with weakness because tomorrow it could change.
This is why the neo-catholics have pushed for the canonization of John Newman. This will seem to enshrine his theory of the evolution of doctrine as "dogma"
Newman is also the cause of the misapplication of conscience over the authority of the Church. Baptism of desire is intimately tied to following conscience over the teachings of the Church.

columba wrote:Our favorite FSSP priest has some answers as to how the crisis can be stopped.

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20070311-Mission-Prelude-to-the-Mission.html

While I think he is pretty good in what he says I think some of his points are inaccurate. He said the God of Islam and the God of Catholics is not the same. I find that difficult to support. Plato and Aristotle believed in a deistic God but we as Catholics use this in a rational argument to the Catholic God. Are they two different Gods? No. Did the Greeks have an intimate understanding of God? No. I would say neither does Islam.

I think St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori has made some unfortunate statements and to say that a penitent can't receive absolution more than 3 times seems a little pharisaical to me. When St. Peter asked our Lord how many times should we forgive 7 times? Jesus said 7 x7. This doesn't mesh with what was said by this priest. If someone is an alcoholic, I think it would be very wrong to give him only 3 trys! or NO ABSOLUTION!
The Church before Vatican II had problems that were not addressed because other bigger problems came along. One such problem like the Legionaries of Christ was the manipulation of young people so as up their membership, St. Alphonsus has been used by them for this too.

Jim
Another problem I think underlies the problem with the Church is Jesuit in nature. They used to refer to the Jesuit father general as the Black Pope. The reason for this was their structure was based on a military model and not on the monastic model.

They had one head for the whole order. While Dominicans and Franciscan used a province model. A province functions as a substitute of a physical monastery. They, like Benedictine monasteries, use the same rules but are semi-autonomous. But the Jesuit model used by groups like Opus Dei have no compartmentalization.

The head is like a mini pope and head of his whole order world wide, with blind obedience to him. This has advantages of efficiency but the disadvantage is when the head goes bad the whole order does too. Very dangerous if a heresy gets into the Jesuit system, which happened with modernism. Modernism was really a Jesuit heresy more or less allowed by their methods more than by intention.

duckbill wrote:The crisis I think is two fold and connected. First the acceptance of evolution of doctrine and second rejection of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.
The reason people reject Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is ultimately because of the acceptance of the evolution of doctrine.
If doctrine can evolve then nothing can be sure and the "Church" speaks with weakness because tomorrow it could change.
This is why the neo-catholics have pushed for the canonization of John Newman. This will seem to enshrine his theory of the evolution of doctrine as "dogma"
Newman is also the cause of the misapplication of conscience over the authority of the Church. Baptism of desire is intimately tied to following conscience over the teachings of the Church.

How do you know that evolution of doctrine, and rejection of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus aren't merely symptomatic of something deeper, i.e., the Crisis? What was their cause?

I think the Crisis must be both collective, individual, and perhaps, universal. It must be of a spiritual nature, connected to the Fall. The phrase, "creature enthroned", comes to mind, from a book I had read long ago. I'm still thinking...

You very well may be right that it may be just symptoms of a deeper spiritual problem. The Jesuit spirituality lead to a militaristic attitude in the Church. This is what I think Dom Bosco was trying to reform. The true spirit of Vat II should have been a Dom Boscoish spirituality without the liberal wishy-washiness.

Many people were turned off by the severity of some of the teaching orders. If you ever read Angela's Ashes ( I am not recommending this book or movie but he was drawing from real experiences and the Church did not come off well) there was some real rot in the Church going back to the beginning of 20th century.

But the attack on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus goes back before that even, right around 1780's, by the 1860's Brownson saw the attack which was sustained until today. Religious wars from 1500's to 1600's lead to a Latitudinism all religions are equal, this pressure effected the Church too.

Duckbill wrote:
While I think he is pretty good in what he says I think some of his points are inaccurate. He said the God of Islam and the God of Catholics is not the same. I find that difficult to support. Plato and Aristotle believed in a deistic God but we as Catholics use this in a rational argument to the Catholic God. Are they two different Gods? No. Did the Greeks have an intimate understanding of God? No. I would say neither does Islam.

If the God of Islam is the same God of Catholicism then they are in a worse predicament than if their god were false. If it is the true God that they believe they are worshiping then how can they ever convert while holding the Koran to be the infallible word of that God? They are in the same predicament as the Jews who also believe in the same God but cannot achieve salvation by holding to their faith.

I think St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori has made some unfortunate statements and to say that a penitent can't receive absolution more than 3 times seems a little pharisaical to me.

I think what he may be referring to is Ricidivism as explained here by Fr Ripperger.

http://www.sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/Disk9/Recidivism.mp3

I agree with you, Jim. I think it is a deeper spiritual problem and it does come from the Fall. And collective and individual. I think you hit the nail on the head.

I think it’s the entire reason for the Fall of man. Satan temped man and said, “You shall be like gods.” Man wanting to be like God/be his own god. “I will not serve.” Just as the “angel of light” said in an age before mankind and took with him one third of all God’s angels who also said they “will not serve” God and were banished forever from Heaven. Satan shared his sentiment to the first man and to some extent with every single man after that. (except for Our Blessed Mother and Christ, of course.) Every time we sin, we say, “I will not serve.” But with His grace we can turn to God and agree to serve him.

This we do individually. But what is going on today, is a collective “I will not serve.”

I think it has to do with secular humanism, which took hold about 200 - 150 years ago in Western society. This led to modernism in the Church and people no longer valuing religion and finally to modern atheism. (In the centuries past many atheists were more agnostic, questioning God, not denying Him and not hating God and religion.)

As man’s knowledge of this world grew and technology expanded, man thought he no longer needed God. Medical advances made man think he no longer needed to rely on God for healing and even thought that life and death were no longer in God’s hands, but in mankind’s own hands. Advances in agriculture and production in factories and transportation made everything more accessible and easier. Technology even had man generating “light in the darkness,” when in the past that came from the stars in the Heavens or from fire, which was always a gift from God.

And the “great thinkers” of the 1800’s told man over and over that they didn’t need God. Why, they had an answer to everything, and whether their answers had proof or ever proved true didn’t matter. God was taken out of the equation. Mankind came from apes, not from God.

Maybe man needed God a little bit to make himself feel better, so he was not overwhelmed with the idea that everything was up to him, but enough so that he didn’t have to go by God’s laws anymore. He preferred setting up his own rules. Which led to ignoring truth, which only comes from God. So society has the illusion that he is in control and there is nothing to worry about. No wrathful God, just a kindly grandfather who will embrace whatever they wish to throw His way, evil and all, because the old man will do whatever the human wants Him to do. Because the human is in charge. (While God is truly loving and merciful, He is also just and truth, which means that He recognizes and hates sin and will destroy it and hate it and therefore be wrathful.) And with no wrathful God, no need for Hell, Satan or sin. These do not exist. Sin is only what humans think is wrong. And since humans think less and less is wrong, few things are considered sin.

That is, of course, the second greatest lie of all from the father of lies. Let people think he does not exist and they will not be on guard for his tricks.

This all translates to a watering down of truth, which is a watering down of the Word of God, entrusted to the Church. No need for the Church or God or truth.

One thing leads to another. So now the secular humanism which infected the Church and society in the earlier part of the 20th century took hold in the 1960’s after Vatican II. I still believe that if the exact documents of Vatican II were written 200 years earlier, even 100 years earlier, there would have been no problem. Coming from the Church, the documents themselves contain no errors. But these documents were put in the hands of men in the Church infected with liberalism, modernism and secular humanism, as was all society. It wasn’t which came first. Modernism in society resulting in modernism in the Church or vice versa. They both developed over the decades before Vatican II tangentially and took hold at the same time. The sexual revolution of the 1960’s being one of the worst manifestations. The sins of the flesh take hold deep within a man’s soul. The Holy Spirit sent Humane Vitae right at that same time, but it was ignored. The errors and abuse that resulted in the Church were not found in the Vatican II documents, but in the hearts of some men in the Church leadership and in many in the pews.

Hearts hardened to His holy truth after over a hundred years of secular humanism.

A lot of errors to undo. Sometimes it seems insurmountable. But with prayer, fasting and the grace of God, all things are possible in Him.

Dear Lord, please have mercy on us. Shelter us and our families from evil. Let us never forget on these discussion boards, that we are not immune from being touched by this evil. “To whom much is given, much is expected.” And sin comes in all forms and the cunning evil one observes each of our own personal weaknesses and is ready to use that knowledge as a weapon against us. But Our Lord has given us greater weapons, by His grace. Apart from Him we are defenseless and will fall. (See Ephesians below)

Especially now, during Lent, let us all remind ourselves of the deeper meaning of the season. Giving up just one thing just one day with great love and repentance for our Lord is more valuable than giving up tons of things all through Lent just to make us feel better about ourselves or calm our consciences.

He wants us to “rent our hearts.” Come back to Him with ALL our heart. From the depths of our souls. It’s good to look at others and society and the “crisis” in the Church. Because it is important and it matters. Out of charity and love of God we hate the evil and lies, and because it effects our families.

But it all starts with us. Each of us individually. Not only what we say here and there, but everything we say and do all day long. What kind of example are we? And when no one is looking, it is the depth of our love of God and how much we are willing to sacrifice for Him, say yes to Him, “serve” Him, and share in His cross and “rent our hearts” (metanoia), that when linked to the gift of His grace will have the power to overcome the evils of secular humanism, modernism and lies. If we persevere in this faith.

The final chapter has already been written and (like Fr. Corapi’s mother used to say, “we know the ending of the book.”) With the grace of God, this can be overcome, but never be eradicated till the end. “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Ecclesiastes) Because in one form or the other, it has always been around and in every age it will return. Until He comes again. May it be soon. “Come, Lord Jesus.”

In the end, it is prayer and fasting. Persevere and do not despair. A perfect time to remind myself of that. Thanks, everyone. I need to meditate on that the night before Lent and take it to heart.

May God bless each of you and your families and may our Blessed Mother guard our children and keep them under her powerful protection.

Love,
Elisa

St. Paul – Ephesians 6:10-20:

Finally, draw your strength from the Lord and from his mighty power.
Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil.
For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground.
So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.
In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all (the) flaming arrows of the evil one.
And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.

What was the name of that book that compared numbers for vocations, Mass attendance..., in the 1960s, with numbers for vocations...40 years later? The book was purely statistical. My pastor does not believe there is a crisis: " If there was a crisis, we would be seeing a mass exodus from our church which simply isn't happening. That is not to say that we aren't hemorrhaging, but there is also new faces each week. Catholicism is growing worldwide. So, I think that we have issues, but I wouldn't characterize them as crisis."

Roguejim wrote:What was the name of that book that compared numbers for vocations, Mass attendance..., in the 1960s, with numbers for vocations...40 years later? The book was purely statistical.

Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II by Kenneth C. Jones?

That's it. Thanks DeSelby.

Fr. Harrison has this to say:
"...It seems to me the post-conciliar "symptoms" (uncorrected confusion, heresy, liturgical abuse, breakdown of Church discipline, loss of priestly/religious vocations, etc., ) ARE THEMSELVES "the crisis". The underlying causes of this crisis are a matter for historical study which would be the subject of a learned article or book..."

This is also relevant:
http://olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

Again I think the main problem is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. While there would be other things to address, this is key.

I challenge BoDites out there to think like a feeneyite for a week. When you see some fallen away Catholic, Protestant, JW, etc... If Feeney is right, what would you feel obligated to do?
Would following a vocation, to commit full-time, to evangelicalism have more appeal ?