Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments,Vatican

Vatican Council II does not contradict itself or the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. We cannot see the dead.- Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments,Vatican

I had an appointment at the office of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments,Vatican with an official representing Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera(Nov.29,2012). It was raining at St.Peter's Square where work on the crib has begun.

I visited the office and asked for 10 minutes to ask two questions on Catholic doctrine related to the liturgy.

We spoke in English.We agreed that we could not see the dead. The dead saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, seeds of the Word, imperfect communion with the Church, elements of sanctification etc were known only to God. So these cases could not be cited as exceptions to Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.He agreed that Vatican Council II does not contradict itself.Lumen Gentium 16 does not contradict Ad Gentes 7.Neither does Vatican Council II contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or, Tradition in general.

So is this an impediment for the priest offering Mass, if it is known and denied in public?

If the priest knowingly denies Vatican Council II(AG 7), the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Nicene Creed (I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins) then this was an issue for the local bishop. The Congregation leaves this issue for the bishop to decide he said.

He offers Mass daily, he said, and he knows that the dead are not visible and these cases are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and neither does Vatican Council II contradict itself or the dogma on exclusive salvation.

He said he wanted to restrict himself to the liturgy only, as instructed by Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and so did not want to talk about the doctrinal issue of the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX).

The message was clear - a priest, bishop or cardinal who offers Holy Mass should not deny Vatican Council II (AG 7),the Nicene Creed and the thrice defined dogma with alleged explicit implicit salvation.

No Magisterial text states that the deceased saved are visible to us on earth or that they are defacto, explicit exceptions to the traditional teaching on salvation. This is falsely implied by the media.

The clarification by this official is important for the present SSPX canonical issue.Since it means that Vatican Council II does not contradict the SSPX position on other religions and ecumenism.

The ecclesiology of Vatican Council II is ecclesiocentric.

Vatican Council II is not a break from the past since implicit salvation is never explicit; there is no known salvation outside the church in 2012.

This is an issue based on universal reason (we cannot see the dead) and not on theology.-Lionel Andrades

Lionel Andrades wrote:
We agreed that we could not see the dead. The dead saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, seeds of the Word, imperfect communion with the Church, elements of sanctification etc were known only to God. So these cases could not be cited as exceptions to Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.He agreed that Vatican Council II does not contradict itself.Lumen Gentium 16 does not contradict Ad Gentes 7.Neither does Vatican Council II contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or, Tradition in general.

If you agree we cannot see the dead saved in invincible ignorance [but who possess supernatural faith], then you must also agree that we cannot see the dead saved in a state of sanctifying grace, for these too are seen only by God who alone sees the state of their souls.

In other words, no degree of visible “perfect communion” can let you see the dead who may or may not be saved in faith, in sanctification and in communion with the Church.

Your entire argument is a logical fallacy.

The divine command that all are called to visible (external) membership in the Catholic Church is not an intrinsic prerequisite for salvation, it is a divine precept of extrinsic necessity that recognizes that one may be joined to Christ and His Body by the internal bonds of faith and charity. That these souls may not be visible to us, but are visible to God, is irrelevant.

This is based both on reason and theology.

When you are ready to discuss theology, let me know.

The recorded instances of unbaptized martyrs saved by baptism of blood (in the Roman Martyrology that forms a part of the Church's Liturgy) are visible manifestations of extra-sacramental regeneration and salvation.

Feenyite protests as to the alleged unreliability of the testimony of the saints to these acts of martyrdom are irrelevant. Even if one or two of the martyrs actually received water Baptism, the belief in baptism of blood is clearly established and given official sanction by the Church.

So yes, Lionel, these unbaptized martyrs were "visible" to the faithful, and died with the grace of baptism, as tradition and their respective canonizations attest.

If you agree we cannot see the dead saved in invincible ignorance [but who possess supernatural faith], then you must also agree that we cannot see the dead saved in a state of sanctifying grace, for these too are seen only by God who alone sees the state of their souls.

Lionel
We cannot see the dead saved in invincible ignorance or who possess supernatural faith.

We cannot see the dead saved in a state of sanctifying grace. However if the Church declares someone a saint or matryr we accept.Physically these cases are not visible to us on earth.


In other words, no degree of visible “perfect communion” can let you see the dead who may or may not be saved in faith, in sanctification and in communion with the Church.

Lionel:
visible “perfect communion”
I am just saying that the dead are not physically visible to us on earth.
This is not theology with which discussions are conducted on this forum.



The divine command that all are called to visible (external) membership in the Catholic Church is not an intrinsic prerequisite for salvation, it is a divine precept of extrinsic necessity that recognizes that one may be joined to Christ and His Body by the internal bonds of faith and charity. That these souls may not be visible to us, but are visible to God, is irrelevant.

This is based both on reason and theology.

When you are ready to discuss theology, let me know.

Lionel:
I repeat I am not discussing theology.

Here is one of three defined dogmas on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."-, Wikipedia, extra ecclesiam nulla salus

Here is Vatican Council II with the same message.

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church with the same message.(Note: ‘Though all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his body’ this is not a contradiction of Ad Gentes7 or Cantate Domino, Council of Florence)

Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Chuch with the same message.

Outside the Church No Salvation
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.(AG 7).
There is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (846)