The Unity of the Body (the Church, Israel)

tornpage Sat Feb 24, 2024 10:20 am

I posted the excerpt from St. Augustine elsewhere here, but I wanted to link it in a separate thread with what I believe to be the very much related thinking of St. Francis de Sales.

I think the point important in these dire times of Pope Francis, Sedevacantism, etc.

St. Augustine, Excerpts from Sermon XXXVIII.

21. But whoso forsaketh unity, violateth charity; and whosoever violateth charity, how great gifts soever he have, he is nothing. “If he speak with the tongues of men and of angels; if he knew all mysteries, if he have all faith, so as to remove mountains, if he distribute all his goods to the poor, if he give his body to be burned, and have not charity; it is nothing; it profiteth him nothing.”( 1 Cor. xiii. 1–3 . ) He possesseth all things to no useful end, who hath not that one thing by which he may use all these things well. So then let us embrace charity, “studying to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”( Eph. iv. 3 . ) Let not those seduce us who understand the Scriptures in a carnal manner, and who in making a bodily separation, are separated themselves by a spiritual sacrilege from the good corn of the Church which is spread over the whole world. For throughout the whole world hath the good seed been sown. That good Sower, the Son of Man, hath scattered the good seed not in Africa only, but everywhere. But the enemy hath sown tares upon it. Yet what saith the Householder? “Let both grow together until the harvest.”( Matt. xiii. 24 , etc. ) Grow where? In the field, of course. What is the field? Is it Africa? No! What is it then? Let us not interpret it ourselves, let the Lord speak; let us not suffer any one to make his guess at his own pleasure. For the disciples said to the Master, “Declare unto us the parable of the tares.” And the Lord declared it: “The good seed,” said He, “are the children of the Kingdom. But the tares are the children of the wicked one.” Who sowed them? “The enemy that sowed them,” said He,” is the devil.” What is the field? “The field,” said He, “is this world.” What is the harvest? “The harvest,” said He, “is the end of the world.” Who are the reapers? “The reapers,” said He, “are the Angels.” Is Africa the world? Is this present time the harvest? Is Donatus the reaper? Look then for the harvest throughout the whole world, throughout the whole world “grow unto the harvest,” throughout the whole world bear with the tares even until the harvest. Let not perverse men seduce you, that chaff so light, which flies out of the floor before the coming of the Winnower; let them not seduce you. Hold them fast even to this single parable of the tares, and suffer them not to speak of anything else. This man, one will say, surrendered[ 1104 ] the Scriptures; no, not so: but this other man surrendered them. Whosoever it might be who has surrendered them, has their faithlessness made void the faithfulness of God? What is “the faithfulness of God”? That which He promised to Abraham, saying, “In thy seed shall all nations be blessed.”( Gen. xxvi. 4 . ) What is the faithfulness of God? “Let both grow together until the harvest.” Grow where? Throughout the field. What is throughout the field? Throughout the world.

22. Here they say; “It is true both kinds did once grow throughout the world, but the good wheat is diminished, and confined to this our country, and our small communion.”[ 1105 ] But the Lord doth not allow thee to interpret as thou wilt. He who explaineth this parable Himself, shutteth thy mouth, thy sacrilegious, profane, and ungodly mouth, that is counter to thine own interests, while thou runnest counter to the testator, even as he calleth thee to the inheritance. How doth He shut thy mouth? by saying, “Let both grow together until the harvest.”( Matt. xiii. 30 . ) If the harvest hath come already, let us believe that the wheat has been diminished. Though not even then shall it be diminished, but gathered up into the barn. For so He saith, “Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into My barn.” If then they grow until the harvest, and after the harvest are gathered in, how are they diminished, thou wicked, thou ungodly one? I grant that in comparison with the tares and chaff the wheat is less in quantity; still “both grow together until the harvest.” For “when iniquity aboundeth, the love of many waxeth cold;”( Matt. xxiv. 12 . ) the tares and the chaff multiply. But because throughout the whole world wheat cannot be wanting, which “by enduring unto the end shall be saved, both grow together until the harvest.” And if because of the abundance of the wicked it is said, “When the Son of Man cometh, thinkest thou, shall He find faith on the earth?”( Luke xviii. 8 , Vulgate. ) and by this denomination are signified all those who by transgression of the law imitate him to whom it was said,” Earth thou art, and unto earth shalt thou return;”( Gen. iii. 19 , Sept. ) yet because of the abundance of the good also, and because of him to whom it was said, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven, and as the sand of the sea;”( Gen. xv. 5 and xxii. 17 . ) is that also written, “Many shall come from the East and West, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, in the kingdom of God.”( Matt. viii. 11 . ) “Both” then “grow together until the harvest,” and both the tares or chaff have their passages in the Scriptures, and the wheat theirs. And they who do not understand them, confound them and are themselves confounded; and in their blind desire they make such an uproar, that they will not be silenced even by the clear manifestation of the truth.

23. See, they say, the Prophet says, “Depart ye, go ye out from thence, and touch no unclean thing;”( Isa. lii. 11 . ) how then for peace sake should we bear with the wicked, from whom we are commanded to “go out and depart that we touch not the unclean thing”? We understand that “departure” spiritually, they corporally. For I also cry out with the Prophet (for however mean a vessel I am, God maketh use of me to minister to you); I also cry out and say to you, “Depart ye, go ye out from thence, and touch not the unclean thing;” but with the touch of the heart, not of the body. For what is it to “touch the unclean thing,” but to consent to sin. And what is it to “go out from thence,” but to do what appertaineth to the rebuking of the wicked, as far as can be done, according to each one’s grade and condition,[ 1106 ] with the maintenance of peace? Thou art displeased at a man’s sin, thou hast not “touched the unclean thing.” Thou hast reproved, rebuked, admonished him, hast administered, if the case required it, a suitable discipline, and such as doth not violate unity; then thou hast “gone out from thence.” Now consider the actions of the Saints, lest perhaps this should seem to be an interpretation of my own. As Saints have understood these words, so surely ought they to be understood. “Go ye out from them,” says the Prophet. I will first maintain this meaning of the words from their customary use, and will afterwards show that that meaning is not my own. It often happens that men are accused; and when they are accused they defend themselves, and when the accused defends himself with good reason and justice, the hearers say, “He has got out of this.” Got out; whither has he gone? He abides still in the place where he was, yet has he “got out of this.” How has he got out of it? By the good account he has rendered, and by his most satisfactory defence. This is what the holy Apostles did when they “shook off the dust from their feet”( Luke x. 11 . ) against those who did not receive the message of peace which was sent to them. That watchman, “got out from thence,” to whom it was I said, “I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel.”( Ezek. iii. 17 . ) For it was told him “If thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his way, that wicked one shall die in his iniquity, and thou shalt deliver thy soul.”( Ezek. iii. 19 . ) This if he do, he “goes out from him,” not by a bodily separation, but by the defence of his own work. For he did what it was his duty to do; though the other, whose duty it was to obey, obeyed not. This then is that, “Go ye out from thence.”

24. So cried Moses and Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Let us see then if they acted thus, if they left the people of God, and betook themselves to other nations. How many and vehement rebukes did Jeremiah utter against the sinners, and wicked ones of his people. Yet he lived amongst them, he entered into the same temple with them, celebrated the same mysteries;[ 1107 ] he lived in that congregation of wicked men, but by his crying out “he went out from them.” This is “to go out from them;” this is not “to touch the unclean thing,” the not consenting to them in will, and the not sparing them in word. What shall I say of Jeremiah, of Isaiah, of Daniel, and Ezekiel, and the rest of the prophets, who did not retire from the wicked people, lest they should desert the good who were mingled with that people, among whom themselves were able to be such as they were? When Moses himself, Brethren, was receiving the law in the mount, the people below made an idol.( Exod. xxxii . ). The people of God, the people who had been led through the waves of the Red Sea which gave way to them, and overwhelmed their enemies who followed after, after so many signs and miracles displayed in plagues upon the Egyptians even unto death, and for “their” protection unto deliverance, yet demanded an idol, obtained an idol by force, made an idol, adored an idol, sacrificed unto an idol. God showeth His servant what the people had done, and saith that He will destroy them from before His Face. Moses maketh intercession for them as he was about to return to this people; yet had he a good opportunity of retiring and “going out from them,” as these persons understand it, that he might “not touch the unclean thing,” might not live among them; but he did not so. And that he might not seem to have acted thus from necessity rather than from love, God offered him another people; so that He might destroy these: “I will make of thee,” He said, “a great nation.” ( Exod. xxxii. 10 . ) But he did not accept it; he cleaveth to the sinners, he prayeth for the sinners. And how does he pray? O signal proof of love, my Brethren! How does he pray? Mark that, as it were, mother’s fondness, of which I have often spoken. When God threatened the sacrilegious people, Moses’ tender heart trembled, and on their behalf he opposed himself to the wrath of God. “Lord,” he says, “if Thou wilt forgive their sin, forgive; but if not, blot me out of Thy book which Thou hast written.”( Exod. xxxii. 32 . ) With what a father’s and mother’s[ 1108 ] fondness, yet with what assurance said he this, as he considered at once the justice and the mercy of God; that in that He is just, He would not destroy the righteous man; and that in that He is merciful, He would pardon the sinners.

25. It is now surely plain to your discernment,[ 1109 ] in what manner all such testimonies of the Scriptures are to be received; so that when Scripture says, that we must depart from the wicked, we are bid to understand this in no other sense, but that we depart in heart; lest by the separation from the good, we commit a greater evil than we shrink from in the union of the wicked, as these Donatists have done. But if they were truly good, and so had reproved the wicked, and not rather being themselves wicked, had defamed [ 1110 ] the good, they would for peace sake bear with any, be they who they might, seeing they have received the Maximianists[ 1111 ] as sound, whom they condemned before as lost. Undoubtedly the Prophet has said plainly, “Depart ye, go ye out from thence, and touch not the unclean thing.” But that I may understand what he said, I pay attention to what he did. By his own deeds he explains his words. He said, “Depart ye.” To whom did he say so? To the righteous of course. From whom did he bid them depart? From sinners and wicked men of course. I ask then, did he depart from such himself? I find that he did not. So then he understood it in another sense. For surely he would be the first to do what he enjoined. He departed from them in heart, he rebuked and reproved them. By keeping himself from consenting to them, he “did not touch the unclean thing;” but by rebuking them he “went out” free in the sight of God; and to him God neither imputeth his own sins, because he sinned not; nor the sins of others, because he approved them not; nor negligence, because he kept not silence; nor pride, because he continued in unity. So then, my Brethren, how many soever ye have among you, who are still weighed down by the love of the world, covetous, or perjured persons, adulterers, spectacle hunters, consulters of astrologers, of fanatics, of soothsayers, of augurs and diviners, drunkards, sensualists, whatever there is of bad that ye know ye have among you; show your disapprobation of it all as far as ye are able, that ye may in heart “depart;” and reprove them, that ye may “go out from them;” and consent not to them, that “ye touch not the unclean thing.”

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 11641-11648). Kindle Edition.

St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy

Part I

Mission

From Chapter III

I say, thirdly, that the authority of the extraordinary mission never destroys the ordinary, and is never given to overthrow it. Witness all the Prophets, who never set up altar against altar, never overthrew the priesthood of Aaron, never abolished the constitutions of the ѕуηαgσgυє. Witness Our Lord, who declares that every kingdom divided against itself shall be brought to desolation, and a house upon a house shall fall (Luke xi. 17). Witness the respect which he paid to the chair of Moses, the doctrine of which he would have to be observed. And indeed if the extraordinary ought to abolish the ordinary, how should we know when, and how, and to whom, to give our obedience. No, no; the ordinary is immortal for such time as the Church is here below in the world. The pastors and teachers whom he has once given to the Church are to have a perpetual succession for the perfection of the saints . . . till we all meet in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ. That we may not now be children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, in the wickedness of men and in their craftiness (Eph. iv. 1) Such is the strong argument which S. Paul uses to prove that if the ordinary pastors and doctors had not perpetual succession, and were liable to have their authority abrogated by the extraordinary, we should also have but an irregular faith and discipline, interrupted at every step; we should be liable to be seduced by men, who on every occasion would boast of having an extraordinary vocation . . .

From Chapter IV

I HAVE not been able hitherto to find but two objections amongst your masters to this reasoning which I have just made, one of which is taken from the example of Our Lord and the Apostles, the other from the example of the Prophets.

And as to the first - tell me, I pray, do you think it right to place in comparison the vocation of those new ministers and that of Our Lord? Had not Our Lord been prophesied as the Messias- had not his time been determined by Daniel? - did he do a single action which had not been described almost exactly in the books of the Prophets, and prefigured in the Patriarchs? He changed the Mosaic law from good into better; but had not this change been predicted? He consequently changed the Aaronic priesthood into that of Melchisedech, far better: is not all this according to the ancient testimonies? Your ministers have not been prophesied as preachers of the word of God, nor the time of their coming, nor a single one of their actions. They have made a revolution in the Church much greater and holder than Our Lord made in the ѕуηαgσgυє; for they have taken all away, only putting back certain shadows: but testimonies to this effect have they none. At any rate they should not elude their obligation of bringing forward miracles in support of such a change, whatever pretext you may draw from the Scriptures, since out Lord dispensed not himself from this, as I have shown above. But whence will they Show me that the Church was ever to receive another form, or a like reformation to the one which our Lord made?

And as to the Prophets, I see many persons under a delusion. It is supposed that all the vocations of the Prophets were extraordinary and immediate. A false idea: for there were colleges and congregations of the Prophets approved by the ѕуηαgσgυє, as may be gathered from many passages of the Scriptures. There were such in Ramatha, in Bethel, in Jericho where Eliseus dwelt, on Mount Ephraim, in Samaria; Eliseus himself was anointed by Heli; the vocation of Samuel was recognised and approved by the High Priest; and with Samuel the Lord began to appear again in Silo, as says the Scripture (I Kings iii. 21); whence the Jєωs regard Samuel as the founder of the congregations of Prophets.

It is supposed that all those who prophesied exercised the office of preaching; which is not true, as appears from what occurred with the officers of Saul and with Saul himself (Ibid. xix.): in such sort that the vocation of the Prophets has no bearing on that of heretics or schismatics. For (i.) it was either ordinary, as we have shown above, or else approved by the remainder of the ѕуηαgσgυє, as is easy to see in their being immediately recognised, and in their being highly esteemed everywhere amongst the Jєωs, who called them "men of God:" and he who will attentively examine the history of that ancient ѕуηαgσgυє will see that the office of priests was as common among them as that of preachers amongst us.

(2.) Never can be pointed out Prophet who wished to overthrow the ordinary power; on the contrary, all followed it, and spoke nothing contrary to the doctrine of those who sat upon the chair of Moses and of Aaron; indeed, some of them were of the priestly race, as Jeremias son of Helcias, and Ezechiel son of Buzi. They have always spoken with honour of the priests and the sacerdotal succession, though they have reprehended their lives. Isaias when about to write in a great book which was shown him, took Urias the priest, though the things were yet to come, and Zacharias the prophet as witnesses, (Isa. viii. I, 2),as if he were taking the testimony of all the Priests and Prophets. And does not Malachy bear witness (ii. 7) that the lips of the priest shall keep knowledge, and they shall seek the law at his mouth: because he is the Angel of the Lord of hosts?-so far were they from ever having withdrawn the Jєωs from the communion of the Ordinary.

. . .

https://www.goodcatholicbooks.org/francis/catholic-controversy/church-mission.html#CHAPTER_II

MRyan Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:51 am

Mark: Excellent. So much to reflect on as it relates to Francis, the unity of the Church, and sedevacantism.

When you have the time, perhaps you can place these saintly reflections by Augustine and Francis de Sales into context.

tornpage Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:41 am

MRyan wrote:Mark: Excellent. So much to reflect on as it relates to Francis, the unity of the Church, and sedevacantism.

When you have the time, perhaps you can place these saintly reflections by Augustine and Francis de Sales into context.

Hi, Mike. You've been quiet. Hope all is well.

Context? Well, St. Augustine was speaking against the Donatists, and St. Francis against the Reformers. Both groups of course separated themselves from the Catholic Church, which one can identify by the pope and the bishops in union with the pope. If "doctrine" is the identifier of the Church, you can end up separating from the Church, believing you are the Church, when you deem the Church to have embraced false doctrine.

Unless . . .

Unless "doctrine" is not your identifier of the Church of Christ. Then you can hold to true doctrine and not go into schism by leaving the one and only Church, the Assembly of Jesus Christ and His people.

Isn't that the point of St. Augustine and St. Francis? You stay in the "house," and you say no to the false testimony/doctrine. This is what it means, says St. Augustine, when God tells us to "depart."

What really hit home for me was the statement of St. Francis about the prophets "not setting up another altar." I had read that years ago, and only came to the St. Augustine passage later, within the last year I think.

I've struggled with passages in Scripture like the Isaiah passage St. A comments on, and more particularly, in the I think relevant Great Apostasy context we are in, Apoc. 18:4 - "Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues." At one point I left the Catholic Church, literally - becoming Orthodox - and then after "coming back" flirted with Sedevacantism, even again at times abandoning or rejecting Catholicism for a Protestant Sola Scriptura "mindset" - I was Prot in spirit, though I've never joined a Prot Church.

But St. Francis's words about the OT prophets kept haunting me, and thinking about Israel, the Church, during the Old Covenant. All you (we) have to do is remind ourselves of that old Israel, and what the prophets who "didn't set up another altar' said about its priests, secular rulers, etc. You name it - abominations, worship of false gods, etc. They even offered their children in sacrifice to Moloch. Yet the prophets never left.

You kidding me? No. Not even the one who said, "depart out," Isaiah. Wow. Think about that. Well, I have.

Christ said the Pharisees sat on Moses's seat. Matthew 23:2, signaling their legitimate authority in the Church. Yeah, those guys, the Pharisees - the whited sepulchers, the ones going about to make converts to make them "twofold" more the children of hell than themselves (Mt. 23:15).

These guys "sitting in the seat" - Our Lord also said beware of their doctrine (Mt 16:12), and oh, right before he gave Peter the "keys" btw (Mt 16:19). The guys "in the seat" of Moses -beware of their doctrine. Imagine that.

These guys "sitting in the seat," also teach traditions that Our Lord said, "make void the commandment of God for your tradition." Mt. 15:6. Wow. Imagine that, the guys "in the seat" of Moses.

Of course, it all gets complicated with the "Pharisees" saying, "the Church is indefectible," when "we all agree with the pope we can't be in error," when we do or say this we're "infallible" - yeah. Ok. I'm with you, I ain't setting up "another altar," I'm no Donatist, or Reformer, I recognize and respect who you are, but . . .

I'll go with "you" as far as I can without making "void the commandment of God." As St. Peter said to the High Priest, "[w]e ought to obey God, rather than men." Acts 5:29.

Heaven to earth, to Mark, and anyone else with "ears to hear, and eyes to see": the pope, and the bishops, they're, well . . . men.

They think they can do no wrong. Perhaps they "have," or perhaps not, done wrong before, but . . . usury, etc. We can argue about "when" they did wrong, or if, "before" the Conciliar "innovation" (again, I'm no Traddie, but I'm adopting the lingo) they did wrong, but "they," well, have done wrong beyond any rational dispute under Francis.

Well, I can go on and on. I've thought deeply about this for years. I've been a rather violent critic of the "regime," in my heart, in my soul, on the web, publicly with my hot air and my little trumpet - big talker, eh? -

But the prophets who witnessed child sacrifice, and the priests of Israel, who

Mal 2:7-8 For the lips of the priest shall keep knowledge, and they shall seek the law at his mouth: because he is the angel of the Lord of hosts. 8 But you have departed out of the way, and have caused many to stumble at the law: you have made void the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 Chron. 36:14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people wickedly transgressed according to all the abominations of the Gentiles: and they defiled the house of the Lord, which he had sanctified to himself in Jerusalem.

They never set up another altar.

I could quote some more, brother, but let that suffice.

Oh, the horrors of horrors, he's quoting Scripture against the Magisterium, "just like a Prottie." Smile

I know some Trads - Cathinfo anyone? - who are scared to death of Scripture, and of "acting like a Protestant." Perhaps that's why they are where they are? Just sayin'.

I think Scripture, like the above, reflected upon deeply, as I have, keeps one within the Church. It has me.

But putting that aside. I've thought deeply about this, and most of these things, for a good 25-30 years.

So there's a little context for ya.

God Bless, my brother.

Mark

tornpage Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:54 am

I think Scripture, like the above, reflected upon deeply, as I have, keeps one within the Church. It has me.

With a little help from our wiser friends, like St. Augustine and St. Francis de Sales.

And a little help from the Holy Ghost, since they, and we, can be very wrong as well.

"Know thyself."

Socrates, and not Scripture, I think. But true.

"Try the spirits." That is Scripture.

1 John 4:1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 By this is the spirit of God known.

tornpage Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:49 pm

Some added thoughts.

I said that Scripture has kept me within the Church. I'll rephrase that. It has convinced me to reject Protestant or Orthodox "solutions." The Catholic Church is the one Church of Jesus Christ, prescinding from the question of whether individuals can be saved in some sort of imperfect, or "partial communion." There is no other body of believers, separated from the Catholic Church, that can claim itself a true Christian Church.

But there remains the question of what exactly is entailed regarding the Church, the assembly, the Corporate, external body or congregation, when the restraining hand of the Holy Ghost is removed, and with it the "charism of infallibility," and Indefectibility. 2 Th. 2:7.

I realize I have suggested, citing St. Augustine and St. Francis de Sales, that one remains in the external, corporate congregation, joined to the hierarchy while objecting to false teaching and teachers. Let me back away a bit from that suggestion.

It is perfectly possible that the removal of the divine, restraining hand "at the end of the age," before Our Lord's return, entails a total abandonment of the Spirit from that corporate body: the Church's life mirrors that of Her Lord, and His "body" died. Stone cold dead, for "three" days. We know from Scripture that the "two witnesses" (the "witness" of the Church to the Gospel during the Gospel Age) are "dead" on the streets of Jerusalem (the Church) for "three days and a half." Revelation 11.

And the command to "go out of her, my people" is directed at an entity that has become "fallen," is "the habitation of devils," and "the hold of every unclean spirit," etc. Revelation 18.

There is a premise, cited elsewhere, of my friend Struthio, that this removal of the restraining hand of the Spirit is tied to a total withdrawal of authority and truth from the hierarchy "at the end of the age," - a reading of prophecy that the Spirit is with the hierarchy of the external, corporate church (the pope and the bishops), "until" ("usque") the end of the age, which corresponds to time that the Gospel has been preached throughout the world, signalling the coming of the end (Matthew 24:14). Here again are links to Struthio's comprehensive treatment at cathinfo:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/

Struthio's analysis seems sound.

As with the Church's Infallibility and Indefectibility, the ordinary rule expressed by St. Augustine and St. Francis de Sales, to stay with the one, true, external, corporate congregation of believers, the Catholic Church, holds throughout the "Church Age" of the Gospel's spread, some almost 2,000 years, but it's a different thing at the "end of the age," when the "until (Latin, usque)" point of Christ's presence and the Holy Ghost with the Church's Magisterium is triggered, and the Spirit flees and is gone - AND THEN, ONLY THEN, are we to hightail it too.

Mt. 28:202 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

docentes eos servare omnia quaecumque mandavi vobis : et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus, usque ad consummationem saeculi.

Mt. 24:15-16 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

Cum ergo videritis abominationem desolationis, quae dicta est a Daniele propheta, stantem in loco sancto, qui legit, intelligat :

16 Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains:

tunc qui in Judaea sunt, fugiant ad montes :

Now there's a true fork in the road, Which way do we go?

tornpage Wed Mar 13, 2024 4:13 pm

Notice specifically what Christ says in Mt 24:15:

Mt. 24:15-16 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

Cum ergo videritis abominationem desolationis, quae dicta est a Daniele propheta, stantem in loco sancto, qui legit, intelligat :

Why "readeth"? Has the living, preaching voice been silenced?

I quoted this here before, but it accords with the necessity of "reading" the truth of the "abomination of desolation" and the fulfillment of prophecy and God's plan in Scripture = the Opus Imperfectum of St. John Chrysostom (commentary on Mt. 24:15 in this excerpt):

What shall we say then? All these things have to be understood spiritually in this manner: “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” and “So when you see the desolating sacrilege … standing in the holy place.” That is to say, when you see a godless heresy, which is the army of Antichrist, standing in the holy places of the church, at that time “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,” that is, let those who are in Christianity hasten to the Scriptures. For just as the real Jєω is a Christian, as the apostle says (“For he is not a real Jєω who is one outwardly.… He is a Jєω who is one inwardly”), so also the real Judah is Christianity, whose name is understood to mean “confession.” But the mountains are the Scriptures of the apostles and prophets, concerning whom it is said, “Glorious are you, more majestic than the everlasting mountains.” And again he says about the church, “On the holy mount stands the city he founded.” And why does he order all Christians to hasten to the Scriptures at this time? Because at this time, ever since a heresy lay hold of those churches, there can be no other test of true Christianity or any other refuge of Christians who want to know the truth of the faith than the divine Scriptures. For previously he was showing in many ways what the church of Christ is and what heathenness is, but now those who want to know what the true church of Christ is can know it in no other way than only through the Scriptures. Why? Because also the heretics in their schism have all these things that are rightly Christ’s in truth: they likewise have churches, the divine Scriptures also, bishops and the rest of the ranks of clergy, baptism, the Eucharist in other respects, and all the other things, and finally Christ. Therefore, if someone wishes to know what the true church of Christ is, how will he know it amid the confusion of such similarity unless he learns it only through the Scriptures?

Thomas C. Oden and Gerald L. Bray, eds., Incomplete Commentary on Matthew (Opus Imperfectum), trans. James A. Kellerman, vol. 1 & 2, Ancient Christian Texts (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2010), 382–383.

tornpage Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:47 am

The Douay Rheims translates 2 Tim. 4:3 as follows (with the Vulgate above it):

Erit enim tempus, cum sanam doctrinam non sustinebunt, sed ad sua desideria coacervabunt sibi magistros, prurientes auribus,

For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears:

St Jerome. Latin Vulgate Bible: Matthew to Revelation (SPQR Study Guides Book 26) . Paul Hudson. Kindle Edition.

There is no qualification here: a time will come when "they" - not some - "will not endure sound doctrine." The key verb is "sustinebunt," parsed and defined in the Kindle translation cited above as:

sustinebunt -> sustineo, sustinere, sustinui, sustentus (v, 2nd): support; check; put off; put up with; sustain; hold back.

St Jerome. Latin Vulgate Bible: Matthew to Revelation (SPQR Study Guides Book 26) . Paul Hudson. Kindle Edition.

However, that is inaccurate as to the parsing: "sustinebunt" is a plural future active indicative 3rd, not 2nd, person verb form of sustineō - see https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sustinebunt

There is a similar verse in 1 Tim. 4:1 about a "last times" departure from the faith. This time, the DR inserts a word of qualification, "some," in the translation:

Spiritus autem manifeste dicit, quia in novissimis temporibus discedent quidam a fide, attendentes spiritibus erroris, et doctrinis dæmoniorum,

Now the Spirit manifestly saith that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error and doctrines of devils,

St Jerome. Latin Vulgate Bible: Matthew to Revelation (SPQR Study Guides Book 26) . Paul Hudson. Kindle Edition.

The word "some" is a translation of "quidam," and, again, the verb ("discedent," translated as "shall depart") is a third-person plural future active indicative.

Of course, we know from 1 John that, even during the apostle's time, there were "antichrists" who "went out from us," departing from the faith. 1 John 2:18-91. There have always been "some" heretics, and St. Paul in 1 Tim. 4:1, if you accept the qualification of "quidam" as a limitation in number, tells Timothy that there will be more during the "last times," which refers to whole time after Christ, the time of the Christian dispensation and the New Covenant:

1 Peter 1:20

Præcogniti quidem ante mundi constitutionem, manifestati autem novissimis temporibus propter vos,

Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you:

St Jerome. Latin Vulgate Bible: Matthew to Revelation (SPQR Study Guides Book 26) . Paul Hudson. Kindle Edition.

In 2 Timothy 4:1, St. Paul points specifically speaks of "a time" to come, or which will be, exist or come in the future ("erit," third-person singular future active indicative of "sum"), when "they," without qualification, will "not endure sound doctrine," but embrace false teachers.

It seems to me that this is a reference to a future time when the collective body, the corporate "Church" of Christ, the hierarchy itself and its adherents, will "fall away."

It seems we are in that time.

tornpage Sun Mar 17, 2024 9:23 am

Shall I muddy the waters further? Of course. The Unity of the Body (the Church, Israel) 1f60f

We are talking on the border of the "secret things" that belong to the Lord (Dt. 29:29), but which He has revealed to us in a veiled manner . . . sealed until the proper time, the time of the end? (Dan. 12:4,9-10). May we be among the "learned [who] shall understand." Dan. 12:10.

God speaks of a corporate, external body of His people who worship in Israel/Jerusalem/the Church, of whom is another Israel/Jerusalem/Church, the elect: the wheat and the cockle/tares growing together until the harvest. Mt. 13:24-30.

Isaiah 4:2-3 In that day the bud of the Lord shall be in magnificence and glory, and the fruit of the earth shall be high, and a great joy to them that shall have escaped of Israel. 3 And it shall come to pass, that every one that shall be left in Sion, and that shall remain in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, every one that is written in life in Jerusalem.

Rom. 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath failed. For all are not Israelites that are of Israel:

Rom. 11:2-4 2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the Scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars: and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the divine answer to him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed their knees to Baal.

The elect are of the "heavenly Jerusalem" (Heb. 12:22), that "our mother" (Gal. 4:26), spoken of beautifully in Psalm 86:

1 For the sons of Core, a psalm of a canticle. The foundations thereof are in the holy mountains: 2 The Lord loveth the gates of Sion above all the tabernacles of Jacob. 3 Glorious things are said of thee, O city of God. 4 I will be mindful of Rahab and of Babylon knowing me. Behold the foreigners, and Tyre, and the people of the Ethiopians, these were there. 5 Shall not Sion say: This man and that man is born in her? and the Highest himself hath founded her. 6 The Lord shall tell in his writings of peoples and of princes, of them that have been in her. 7 The dwelling in thee is as it were of all rejoicing.

So, this "fleeing" of Israel . . . St. Augustine and St. Francis de Sales may have been expressing a truth that prevails not only until "the consummation of the age" and the demise of the corporate, external Church congregation, but until Our Lord's return: the "flight" is spiritual, and not of the feet. We remain in the "body" as pure organs as the flesh rotteth away.

St. Augustine did rely heavily upon the parable of the wheat and the cockel/tares after all - which is a growing together until the harvest.

Hey, if it was simple . . . .

Pray, pray, pray.

I know two things which are certain: the Lord shall judge His people -the Church (Heb. 12:30) - and that judgment begins at the Lord's house - the Church (1 Pet. 4:17) - and there will be a Great Apostasy in the Church, and that none of those given to the Lord shall be lost (John 6:37-39 etc.), as "the sure foundation of God standeth firm, having this seal: the Lord knoweth who are his" (2 Tim. 2:19) . . . the ones spoken of as "reserved" in Romans 11:4 (which quotes 3 Kings 19:18).

Beyond that . . . well, this thread.

May we be among the "learned" and the ones "reserved," who receive the "mark" or "sign" of the Lord. See also Ezek. 9:4, Apoc. 9:4 -

Ezek. 9:4 And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof.

Apoc. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree: but only the men who have not the sign of God on their foreheads.

tornpage Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:46 am

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made.

2 Cor. 11:3-4 But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

Matthew 24:15-16 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains:

Apoc. 18:4-5 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities.

Matthew 3:7-10 And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: Ye brood of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire.