Sniping. Is it really moral?

pascendi Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:36 pm

As you all know, Chris Kyle was recently murdered. If you aren't familiar with him, check around a bit. Famous America sniper, wrote a book and stuff, promulgated as an American hero, etc.

I went into a bit of a tyrade recently because Catholics in other places wanted to prop this guy up as a hero, but of course I'm thinking "hey wait a minute, slow down here... sniping... seriously, does this *really* fit squarely within the confines of Catholic morality?"

My Catholic instinct screams out NO. No way.

There's one priest out there, cited in an article by Renew America, who gives argument that Chris was engaged in something within the confines of just war principle. I thought it was a horribly sloppy argument. I can find little else. Some people send me to the CCC claiming that it supports a case for sniping, but I read the sections they provide and find that said sections actually serve to counter their position.

What say you?

columba Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:30 pm

I was listening to an online presentaion a couple of years ago by a British lawyer who was claiming that all those (collectively and individually) involved in military action in foreign countries are war criminals... How so?

Well, according to the Magna Carta (of which both America and Britain are also bound), it would hence forth be considered as War Crime for a sovereign country to invade another sovereign country that had not first been the aggressor. Furthermore (as established at the Nuremberg Trials) it would not be considered as a legitimate defense for a soldier to claim that he was merely following orders if those orders were themselves in breach of the terms of the Magna Carta.

The moral status of the sniper would be irrelevent if the legallity of the war itself is questioned (and has been), which according to the Magna Carta and the UN, America and Britain's Attack on Iraq was illegal, and thus, every soldier who went along with it would himself be guilty of war crime.

I'm not here arguing that the Magna Carta or the UN treaty are the ultimate moral authority; I'm merely stating a fact that those countries who signed to these agreements are morally bound by and judged by them, for better or for worse.

As for Chris Kyle; it may be the case that those who live by the sword, perish by the sword.

pascendi Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:44 pm

columba wrote:

As for Chris Kyle; it may be the case that those who live by the sword, perish by the sword.

That was my immediate thought when I first heard of it, right down to the method of execution.

I was meaning to make a distinction between the morality of our involvement in the middle east in general and separate from the narrow consideration of the morality of sniping in as treated uniquely. As for the former, JP2 came out in condemnation of our involvement in the middle east.

Given that our involvement there is itself in question by many as to its legitimacy in regards to just war theory (...theory? really? lol), I figured it only incidental that Chris Kyle sniped in that particular place.

columba Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:21 pm

I must admit to not having gave much thought to the issue of the sniper. What aspect of this method of combat do you consider immoral in a war situation?

MRyan Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:46 pm

columba wrote:I must admit to not having gave much thought to the issue of the sniper. What aspect of this method of combat do you consider immoral in a war situation?

Good question.

MRyan Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Good article; here’s an extract:

Guilt, Not PTSD, Is What Afflicts Iraq War Veterans
by Jacob G. Hornberger

Consider the following incident related by Kyle, who was one of the U.S. military’s deadliest snipers. Two weeks after he arrived in Iraq, he encountered a woman with a child who pulled a grenade as she was approached by a group of Marines. Kyle shot her dead. He said, “It was my duty to shoot, and I don’t regret it. My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman’s twisted soul.”

But who here has the twisted soul? That woman was defending her country from the troops of a brutal foreign regime that had unlawfully invaded and occupied her country and killed countless of her countrymen, perhaps members of her family or friends or acquaintances. Kyle was a soldier who had blindly followed the orders of the president to attack, invade, and occupy a country that had never attacked the United States and was killing people who were resisting his aggression.

Ask yourself: What would American men and women do if the United States were attacked, invaded, and occupied by, say, North Korea? Wouldn’t many Americans defend their country, their families, and their homes from the aggressors? Who would Americans consider the twisted souls in that case — the people who were defending or the North Koreans who had attacked, invaded, and occupied the United States?

(http://fff.org/2013/02/05/guilt-not-ptsd-is-what-afflicts-iraq-war-veterans/)

pascendi Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:59 am

Good find.

Forum Janitor Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:40 pm

I’m not sure that finding fault with a legitimate act of self-defense, especially when the violent act is being directed against American servicemen, is the way you really want to go here.

columba Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:30 pm

Forum Janitor wrote:I’m not sure that finding fault with a legitimate act of self-defense, especially when the violent act is being directed against American servicemen, is the way you really want to go here.

I would like to think that "legimate" acts of self-defense are the right of all (not just Americans or western Europeans). The morality of the use of snipers was being questioned and I was wondering what the argument against their use would be in a legitimate war situation. I'm still not sure what the arguments for or against are.

Forum Janitor Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:38 pm

A sniper is a specialist job in the military to augment the effectiveness of a formation, to harass the enemy’s ability to operate, and provide a screen to impede the enemy’s ability to decipher friendly movements, and on the other hand, to provide intelligence about the enemy’s movements.

In this case, a sniper engaged an enemy target which was attempting to attack US Forces. He was well within his rights to do so, and there are probably some men alive today in that case, who were able to complete their jobs and go home to their families thanks to his efforts.

RememberGethsemane Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:41 am

Just signed in today after a long absence to reply to this vomit about chris kyle, and it reminded me why i left this place of vomit in the first place. Chris Kyle got celebrity status after writing a book of lies about his so called heroic events in Iraq, he said he punched out Jesse Ventura in a bar because he was downing marines etc which was proved lies. Kyle was a killing machine lunatic and mind-controlled, the invasion of Iraq was an act of rape by America and a disgrace to their country. To hold anyone who took part in that dispecable act in any sort of esteem is abhorrent and I now know that the participants in this room are vile, because they dont have the basic intelligence of morality. Anyone who takes part in conversations justifying the basic satanic agenda is scum.

RememberGethsemane Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:56 am

May Saint John the apostle favored by Christ fervored in his love for Christ and His Mother open your eyes to Truth.

RememberGethsemane Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:06 am

Forgive me Lord my trespasses against You, I am not worthy of You.

Forum Janitor Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:39 am

There really isn’t a good reply to all of that.

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