EENS: A Convert's Perspective

Actually, two converts from http://www.calledtocommunion.com/ which, by the way, is an excellent site. I'd like to induce them to check out this forum here.

Anyway, I contacted two of the authors at the above site concerning EENS, one of whom permitted me to publish his name. The other, I failed to ask, so I will leave him anonymous. I'm sharing their responses for your consideration. How would you respond?

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Jim XX <> wrote:
> SendtoConvert from Protestantism
>
> Dear Mr. Convert from Protestantism,
>
> My name is Jim XX. I am a cradle Catholic of 52 years, and a new visitor to the Called to Communion website. Being one who is quite interested in Catholic/Protestant issues, I was hoping to ask a convert, such as yourself, a question or two regarding the Catholic dogma "extra ecclesiam nulla salus". My questions are these:
>
> Was this particular dogma ever presented to you for your consideration prior to entering the Church, perhaps in an R.C.I.A. class, or by some other Church authority?
>
> What is your understanding of this teaching with respect to modern day Protestants, i.e., as a group, generally speaking, do you consider them to be inside or outside the Church?
>
> My reason for asking these questions is not to be contentious, I promise. I am a fan of EWTN's "The Journey Home", and have noticed that the converts I've seen interviewed, never seem to give the impression that they entered the Catholic Church for the reason of salvation, i.e., that they felt they were outside the Church and needed to enter Her. They, instead, speak of wishing to have the "fullness of truth", or, to "walk more closely with the
> Lord". They, and the host Marcus Grodi, seem to present the Catholic Church as almost a "best option" among many valid options, but never as the "only option". And they never seem to express any sense of urgency regarding the friends or family they left behind in their former Protestant denomination. In fact, they speak of them in glowing terms as if their salvation is quite secure where they are.
>
> I trust you understand what it is I'm trying to get across with my questions. I hope I have not offended you. Have a holy and blessed Christmas.
>
> In Jesus and Mary,
> Jim XX

Hello Jim,

Thanks very much for your note I don't remember exactly when I learned about EENS. But I learned about it at some point in the year or so that I spent studying Catholic doctrine, prior to making the decision to become Catholic.

Present-day Protestants are not in full communion with the Church, because they do not hold the Catholic faith, the Catholic sacraments, or the Catholic government. So they are not members of the Church Christ founded. But, through their baptism, they are placed in certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. For that reason they are not in the same condition as infidels.

But they are not (necessarily) in the same conditions as formal heretics, because of invincible ignorance. The Catechism explains in CCC 847:

This affirmation [i.e. EENS] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.


A person in a state of invincible ignorance about the identity of the Catholic Church, does not think that his salvation depends upon becoming Catholic. That's why most of the Catholic converts (from Protestantism) that you hear on EWTN don't say that they become Catholic in order to be saved or justified. The Catechism explains the qualification: "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (CCC 846) Persons who through invincible ignorance don't know about the Catholic Church, can be saved (though it is not easy); but persons who know it, and refuse it, cannot be saved.

Obviously, we cannot judge someone's heart, to determine whether he or she is in a state of invincible ignorance. But, we tend to think of our fellow Protestants as we remember ourselves to have been as Protestants, namely, as having no idea that the Catholic Church was the Church Christ founded.

I hope that answers your question.

In the peace of Christ,

- Convert from Protestantism


This below is the response from the "anonymous" author at Called to Communion. I'm not including my initial email as it is the same as the one posted above.

Jim,
Very good question.
I hope I am with the Church on this issue.
1) There is only one true Church, established by Christ for the salvation of the world.
2) This church is the normative means for salvation for all people.
3) Anyone who understands the necessity of the Church and refuses to enter cannot be saved.
4) All the baptized are either perfectly or imperfectly in communion with this Church.
5) Those who are invincibly ignorant of the necessity of the Church can still, by God's grace, be saved - but they are in a seriously deficient situation.

-Does this answer your question?

-X

Very interesting, thanks for sharing, Jim.

So they are not members of the Church Christ founded. But, through their baptism, they are placed in certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

4) All the baptized are either perfectly or imperfectly in communion with this Church.
5) Those who are invincibly ignorant of the necessity of the Church can still, by God's grace, be saved - but they are in a seriously deficient situation.

The more I think about it, the more this begs the question... Does imperfect communion make for an "imperfect (or "deficient") salvation"? How does that work? What is the consequence of imperfection and deficiency?

Does "imperfect communion", or "not in full communion" place one inside or outside the Church?

Present-day Protestants are not in full communion with the Church, because they do not hold the Catholic faith, the Catholic sacraments, or the Catholic government [subjection to the Roman Pontiff]. So they are not members of the Church Christ founded . But, through their baptism, they are placed in certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

Quite true; but here's the bottom line: Not only are present-day Protestants excluded from membership in the Church Christ founded; but, objectively speaking, they are not and cannot be in communion with Christ, the Head of the Mystical Body:

“For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.” (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, Jan. 6, 1928)

Dominus Iesus:

Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith ... rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 ... If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”.93

Is imperfect communion enough for salvation?

MRyan wrote:

Present-day Protestants are not in full communion with the Church, because they do not hold the Catholic faith, the Catholic sacraments, or the Catholic government [subjection to the Roman Pontiff]. So they are not members of the Church Christ founded . But, through their baptism, they are placed in certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

Quite true; but here's the bottom line: Not only are present-day Protestants excluded from membership in the Church Christ founded; but, objectively speaking, they are not and cannot be in communion with Christ, the Head of the Mystical Body:

“For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.” (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, Jan. 6, 1928)

Dominus Iesus:

Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith ... rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 ... If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”.93

Thanks, Santa. I sent off your response to Mr. Convert from Protestantism

duckbill wrote:Is imperfect communion enough for salvation?

A rhetorical question ... no doubt.

From Convert from Protestantism,


"The statement from Mortalium Animos is compatible with Protestants being in communion with Christ, because Protestants, though not in full communion with the Church, are, by their baptism, in an imperfect communion with the Church; they are not completely cut off from the Church by formal heresy (because of invincible ignorance) or by excommunication. The statement from Mortalium Animos would have to say that whoever is not in full communion with the Body, is not in communion with Christ, in order to conclude from it justifiably that Protestants cannot be in communion with Christ. But that is not what Mortalium Animos says. So the forum member's conclusion is a non sequitur.

And the statements from Dominus Iesus are also compatible with Protestants being in communion with Christ. Yes, theological error is an obstacle to salvation, because theological error (and the lack of certain sacraments) makes it more difficult to relate to God rightly, to remain in a state of grace, and to grow in grace and charity. But the fact that theological error is an obstacle to salvation does not mean that such error prevents anyone from being in a state of grace while holding that error. 'Obstacle' here should not be taken in an absolute sense, but as a hindrance, something that makes it much more difficult. Being in theological error, and, for example, lacking five of the seven sacraments, puts Protestants in a "gravely deficient situation," making it much more difficult for them to remain in a state of grace, and grow in grace and charity. But, the fact that they are in a "gravely deficient situation" does not entail that it is impossible for them to be in communion with Christ, or to be saved. That can be seen in Dominus Iesus 20, which says

"For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit."


The forum member you quoted seemed to think that the line, "If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged" was referring to Protestants, but in fact it is referring to Catholics."


In the peace of Christ,

- Convert from Protestantism

From Bryan Cross,

"The statement from Mortalium Animos is compatible with Protestants being in communion with Christ, because Protestants, though not in full communion with the Church, are, by their baptism, in an imperfect communion with the Church; they are not completely cut off from the Church by formal heresy (because of invincible ignorance) or by excommunication. The statement from Mortalium Animos would have to say that whoever is not in full communion with the Body, is not in communion with Christ, in order to conclude from it justifiably that Protestants cannot be in communion with Christ. But that is not what Mortalium Animos says. So the forum member's conclusion is a non sequitur.

No, that is precisely what Mortalium Animos says. If Mr. Cross is familiar with the Encyclical he would know that Pope Pius IX was directing his comments towards all non-Catholic Christians. The very subject of the Encyclical is “ON RELIGIOUS UNITY” and its entire purpose is to enable Catholics to “more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments … from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those undertakings which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.”

In fact, here is the greater context of the subject text:

10. …the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]

Paragraph 11 then addresses the unfortunate separation of the Orthodox, who are in a more substantive “partial communion” with the Catholic Church than are Protestants, but Pope Pius IX does not sugar-coat the objective reality of their situation when he says:

Let them therefore return to their common Father, who … will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, "the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful"?[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."

Finally:

12. Let, therefore, the separated children draw nigh to the Apostolic See, set up in the City which Peter and Paul, the Princes of the Apostles, consecrated by their blood; to that See, We repeat, which is "the root and womb whence the Church of God springs,"[27] not with the intention and the hope that "the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"[28] will cast aside the integrity of the faith and tolerate their errors, but, on the contrary, that they themselves submit to its teaching and government…

13. You, Venerable Brethren, understand how much this question is in Our mind, and We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity. While awaiting this event, and as a pledge of Our paternal good will, We impart most lovingly to you, Venerable Brethren, and to your clergy and people, the apostolic benediction.

Clear enough. Mr. Cross appears to be engaging in a form of special pleading whereby a “partial-communion” by virtue of one’s baptism somehow exempts Protestants from being the subject of Mortalium Animos; when in fact, if “those who are separated from Us” (e.g., Protestants) “enter not here”, they “will be lost”.

Somewhere along the way, a “partial communion” by virtue of one’s baptism became for adult Protestants a state of objective unity with the Mystical Body by the bonds of an imperfect faith, an imperfect charity, and sanctification outside of her one Body (other than one’s initial sanctification at baptism); all of which are presumed to be present in our separated brethren; as least those of good-will who remain in an inculpable state of invincible ignorance, and are therefore “excused” from coming to the fullness of the truth and from entering into their only hope of salvation - the Catholic Church. They already “belong” to the Catholic Church, they just don’t know it!

How does one dispel such subjective darkness with the light of objective truth?

Mr. Cross continues:

And the statements from Dominus Iesus are also compatible with Protestants being in communion with Christ. Yes, theological error is an obstacle to salvation, because theological error (and the lack of certain sacraments) makes it more difficult to relate to God rightly, to remain in a state of grace, and to grow in grace and charity. But the fact that theological error is an obstacle to salvation does not mean that such error prevents anyone from being in a state of grace while holding that error. 'Obstacle' here should not be taken in an absolute sense, but as a hindrance, something that makes it much more difficult. Being in theological error, and, for example, lacking five of the seven sacraments, puts Protestants in a "gravely deficient situation," making it much more difficult for them to remain in a state of grace, and grow in grace and charity. But, the fact that they are in a "gravely deficient situation" does not entail that it is impossible for them to be in communion with Christ, or to be saved. That can be seen in Dominus Iesus 20, which says

"For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit."

The forum member you quoted seemed to think that the line, "If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged" was referring to Protestants, but in fact it is referring to Catholics."

Let’s dispense with this last item first, for it is the same “special pleading” we saw with Mortalium Animos. In Dominus Iesus, the CDF (headed by Cardinal Raztinger) placed the specific context of the cited warning like so: “If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.”

So it is not true (objectively speaking) that DI was referring only to “Catholics” when it immediately followed with: “However, all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ”. DI cited Lumen Gentium 14 (which is indeed a reference to Catholics) here only to make the point that even if, subjectively speaking, “divine grace” can be attained by “the followers of other religions”, the conditions necessary (persevering grace) for retaining this state (received at one’s baptism) are so tenuous and difficult while one remains in an objective communion with a false religion, that it is considered by the Church to be a gravely deficient situation.

In summary, every Protestant is in a gravely deficient situation because 1) Their objective condition (the only condition the Church can judge) places them outside the Catholic Church, and 2) Even IF, subjectively speaking, “divine grace” … “can” be attained by individual “followers of other religions”, “If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged.”

And the divine grace of assistance they are given enables them to beg for the saving grace that “scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love” … “if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity”.

Again, Dominus Iesus:

"For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit."

Note that DI is referring to one’s final salvation, and not necessarily to a subjective possibility of sanctification which may be lost prior to this. As such, this teaching is no different from that which Pope Pius IX taught on invincible ignorance where he taught that if a soul of good-will is truly inculpable in his ignorance, and is truly open in charity to the graces God gives him; and, if he is ready to obey God, God will, finally, dispel the darkness and bring this soul into the fullness of truth and into His Mystical Body, the Church - outside of which no one at all can be saved; even if formal incorporation into her visible structure is lacking.

In his The Catholic Dogma: Extra Ecclesiam Nullus Omnino Salvatur/Chapter V/Part 2, Fr. Michael Muller explains it thus:

for inculpable ignorance of the fundamental principles of faith excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy; because such invincible ignorance, being only a simple involuntary privation, is no sin. Hence Pius IX. said "that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in his infinite mercy, may enlighten him [“by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace”] so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man will, in his infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault."

I wonder if Mr. Cross realizes that this particular grace, which "enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation", but leaves them in darkness with respect to the fullness of the truth, cannot be that grace which scatters the darkness of ignorance and results in an ignorant Protestant finally recognizing “the one true Church of Jesus Christ” who “will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity”.

What DI may actually be proposing is this: With the assistance of divine grace, “their spiritual and material situation” will not pose a barrier to the infusion of that grace which saves -- so that they may finally come to the knowledge of the truth and enter the Church.

We must remember that while it is certainly within the Church’s competency to explain that our Lord can save certain souls “in a mysterious manner”, but never apart from the Church; and while it is also true to say with Pope Pius IX: “Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things?”; when it comes to our salvation, the Church deals in objective reality, and not with subjective possibilities that “can” happen within the providence of God’s justice and mercy. As Pope Pius IX continues:

For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

Again, DI can in no way be opposed to the constant teaching of the Church that makes it clear that Protestants who have been given the gift of “divine grace” must, being “ready to obey God”, respond to that grace by recognizing “the one true Church of Jesus Christ” so that they “will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity”.